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Atheria
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2009 : 21:59:54 [Permalink]
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Hello everyone. I'm a skeptic noobie, but loving what I've read so far. I am slowly falling in love with Dave, for his stellar posts on various forums ( love that SHS forum and thank God *or whoever you pray to* you brought up asthma) On to the subject at hand.
Yes it is routine to selectively reduce the number of embryos when the number that develop are over twins or triplets depending on the doctor's standards. I personally don't agree with it for many reasons, but that is besides the point of it all. Women and couples are given the opportunity to do as much, and whether they do so or not is their prerogative. Also, the recommendation is for women under thirty to have no more than 2 eggs transferred. Even if two eggs twin, as happened in her case, she would have no more than 4 developing fetuses.
Now it Google some links to back up my claim.
*runs to the search engine gods*
Well it's late and the gods seem to be angry with me... I'll edit this later to fix the lack of links. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 22:19:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Atheria
I am slowly falling in love with Dave... |
Welcome to the Skeptic Friends Network, Atheria, but we've got a lot of Daves. You're going to have to be more specific. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 09:51:03 [Permalink]
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Welcome Atheria!
From what I heard, it was indeed normal practice to implant a bunch of embryos, see what takes hold, and get rid of the sur-numerous.
But a couple of weeks, I mentioned that to somebody (the Skepticamp talk about Skeptical parenting, as a matter of fact) and she corrected me, apparently, the procedure had changed, at least in younger women.
It might be that the implantation now is better and there is not as much risk of embryos not taking hold... Or that might be cultural, after all, 'abortion-like procedures' are very unpopular in the US.
So it really seems like she purposely chose to carry such a large number... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 00:08:17 [Permalink]
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Late to the party, was out of town.
Here's info on selective reduction (termination of one or more fetuses in a multiple pregnancy).
Regarding whether or not a doctor could or should decline to provide a requested service (IVF, abortion, contraceptive Rx): if there is a reason to think that someone will come to medical (including psychiatric) harm, then it is incumbent upon the physician NOT to proceed with the procedure. At least not without considering that potential harm seriously.
For hormonal contraceptives, this could mean declining prescription for a woman in whom the risks seem to outweigh the benefits (& counseling her on other available approaches). The woman can say that she will accept the risks, but the physician is still the one who made the medical decision to proceed with the potentially dangerous treatment.
For abortion, concern over mental health is the only situation I can think of in which an abortion could be more dangerous to the woman than letting the pregnancy proceed. (It's a stretch, but imagine a woman who says she will kill herself if she has an abortion, but then asks for an abortion. The physician should NOT proceed with abortion, at least not until sorting out the psych issues in greater detail.)
For IVF, implanting such a large number of embryos places the woman, and each of the fetuses, at risk for adverse health outcomes if a high percentage "take". These days, it's no surprise when several of the kids born of any large multiple pregnancy have permanent disabilities (often related to prematurity).
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2009 : 03:33:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
So, apart from being unable to fill up his tax declaration, what are Joe's qualifications?
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Well... Hmmm.... I guess he's big and bald, and makes dumb statements.... Hmmm.... And he's a Republican.... Hmmm.... And Pajamas Media went all but tits-up not long after hiring him.... And that's about it, really.
These days, that makes him perfectly qualified to help formulate GOP political policy and strategy, and indeed, be the VP candidate on a Palin/Joe ticket in '12. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2009 : 08:45:33 [Permalink]
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| Looking at Rush Limbaugh, I'd thought that you also needed a past history of drug addiction and drug related crimes... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Atheria
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 20:14:36 [Permalink]
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| Yes Dave I mean you. Dave W. Zebra thank you for finding the links my poor sleep deprivated college student mind couldn't even use a search engine to find. As for mental health, this women obviously has problems, but selectively reducing the number of embroyes in her case, could have led to something much worse than not mentally( think a noose) so it was probably better that they did not, considering her obessession with having children. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:11:54 [Permalink]
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I think that the doc is supposed to ascertain the patient's mental health, though, and refuse to go through the treatment when it is clear that something is wrong.
Now,we don't know how many physician advised against the treatment until she found one complacent/uninquisitive enough...
By the way, can I ask you what you are studying? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Atheria
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 11:39:54 [Permalink]
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Certainly, I'm a physics/astronomy double major, with an eventual minor in either math/music or both. I'm probably going to end up taking enough math to get a minor anyway, so the only thing I have to actually work for is a music minor. Music majors require WAY too much time.
As for the physicians complacency, I would agree he dropped the ball on this one. Letting a mentally unstable women birth children isn't the best of ideas. However, I read on CNN it was the same clinic for all of her children, along with the same sperm donor.
If that's true then they(clinic) already had a good understanding of her reproductive success. That makes transferring 6 embryos into a women under 30 much more likely, as they would have enough experience to know that only 1(or less) of those embryos took in prior attempts.
Soooo, it's on the clinic for not following protocol, but when they have tried lower numbers before with no success, I'm assuming it's in their(patient/couple) right to ask that more be transferred after the second unsuccessful try or more. I could be wrong here though. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 13:13:05 [Permalink]
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Indeed, but it is the physician right to refuse the procedure if he consider it a health (including mental health) risk...
But then, the woman might have not raised a fuss until the embryos got implanted and then change her mind and go all fundie on them. This has happened before, and the physicians have no recourse, which is fair enough, forcing a woman to terminate some of her pregnancies would be quite disgusting...
Anyway; congrats on your studies; I find astrophysics downright impressive... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Jill the Plumber
