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the seeker
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2008 : 18:37:03
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Education. What is it run by? The government. Yes, the capitalist government of the US of A.
Ever notice how the kids in the more well-off neighborhoods go to the top public schools, how the kids who are middle class go to decent schools, and the poor kids seem to all go to the trashy, poor, schools where 1/3 of the student population are either on crack or in a gang...or both?
Take this into mind: Have you ever wondered if public education was really a way to keep the rich rich and the poor poor?
Because what happens to those kids who go to these award-winning schools? They do well. Being a student who attends one of the top schools in my entire tri-state area, I have to say that around 45% of my entire school consists of "gifted children". Even the social hierarchy of the school is unique--the "popular people" are just figureheads and have no power. Not only that, but they are actually very smart, book-wise AND people-wise, which completely goes against the traditional "Mean Girls" stereotype. The skater kids are actually "cool", the emo/scene kids are all this gigantic clique that somehow overrides the "popular kids", and all in all people really do mingle amonst each other. Even the dumbest kids still end up passing the state tests and whatnot because of all the preparations we go through, the education provided her is excellent.
Then the schools for the middle class-ish schools...they are decent. Not as good as the schools like mine, but they still get by, even though sometimes their curriculum tends to be based entirely on their state tests and the SATs.
Then in the poor schools...no one seems to really give a damn. The curriculum is shitty and barely teaches the kids anything, the bus drivers let the kids smoke on the bus, the teachers don't care if the kids bring weed to school and leave during lunch to get baked, and worst of all, the kids there all come from such terrible families that they end up conforming to their fellow students, who do act moderately ignorant. The environment is dreadful, and most of their parents are too busy working or too caught up in crack or prostitution to really help motivate their child to do better. Even if they do make it through high school, a lot of them can't even go to college because their parents won't pay, and it is indeed hard to do well enough in an environment like that to win scholarships.
Yes, this seems a bit extreme, but all in all, do you see what society, what the government is doing here?
Because when those kids grow up, the rich kids will end up being the ones with the good jobs, working as corporate bosses while the middle class kids get the fair jobs such as being a teacher, and quite a few of the poor kids end up not even going to college and either working in the laborforce or drug dealing at random street corners.
Whatever happened to the philosophy of equal education?
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My signature consists of my not having a signature. |
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the seeker
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 18:38:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the seeker
Education. What is it run by? The government. Yes, the capitalist government of the US of A.
Ever notice how the kids in the more well-off neighborhoods go to the top public schools, how the kids who are middle class go to decent schools, and the poor kids seem to all go to the trashy, poor, schools where 1/3 of the student population are either on crack or in a gang...or both?
Take this into mind: Have you ever wondered if public education was really a way to keep the rich rich and the poor poor?
Because what happens to those kids who go to these award-winning schools? They do well. Being a student who attends one of the top schools in my entire tri-state area, I have to say that around 45% of my entire school consists of "gifted children". Even the social hierarchy of the school is unique--the "popular people" are just figureheads and have no power. Not only that, but they are actually very smart, book-wise AND people-wise, which completely goes against the traditional "Mean Girls" stereotype. Yes, the students at my school are so well-taught that even the preppy bimbos who throw their lives away for booze and fashion are indeed still smart. Even the dumbest kids still end up passing the state tests and whatnot because of all the preparations we go through, the education provided her is excellent.
Then the schools for the middle class-ish schools...they are decent. Not as good as the schools like mine, but they still get by, even though sometimes their curriculum tends to be based entirely on their state tests and the SATs.
Then in the poor schools...no one seems to really give a damn. The curriculum is shitty and barely teaches the kids anything, the bus drivers let the kids smoke on the bus, the teachers don't care if the kids bring weed to school and leave during lunch to get baked, and worst of all, the kids there all come from such terrible families that they end up conforming to their fellow students, who do act moderately ignorant. The environment is dreadful, and most of their parents are too busy working or too caught up in crack or prostitution to really help motivate their child to do better. Even if they do make it through high school, a lot of them can't even go to college because their parents won't pay, and it is indeed hard to do well enough in an environment like that to win scholarships.
Yes, this seems a bit extreme, but all in all, do you see what society, what the government is doing here?
Because when those kids grow up, the rich kids will end up being the ones with the good jobs, working as corporate bosses while the middle class kids get the fair jobs such as being a teacher, and quite a few of the poor kids end up not even going to college and either working in the laborforce or drug dealing at random street corners.
Whatever happened to the philosophy of equal education?
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My signature consists of my not having a signature. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2008 : 18:56:00 [Permalink]
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Are you implying any sort of intent in these observations?
I've no doubt that these scenarios describe reality for many, although I'm sure we all know of anecdotal exceptions to this rule.
Originally posted by the seeker
Yes, this seems a bit extreme, but all in all, do you see what society, what the government is doing here? |
I guess what I'm getting at is the causality. Do you think the system:
1. Was designed this way deliberately.
2. Ended up this way through bad design.
3. Something else entirely.
My personal experience has been through the public school system in Australia, and then through a regular (public-esque?) university. I believe our system is reasonable, although certainly not without the potential for improvement. My eldest child will probably begin kindergarten in 2009, and we fully intend to send her to the local public school at this point.
Before I get even more carried away with anecdotal evidence and assertions, I'd like to hear a bit more from you about where you intended to take this discussion.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 03/09/2008 18:59:14 |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2008 : 11:15:02 [Permalink]
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Being from another country, I do not understand the concept of PUBLIC SCHOOLS = GOOD EDUCATION and PRIVATE SCHOOLS = BAD EDUCATION. In my country itīs the other way around. Except for universities in which the public ones have higher standards (which is in someway a filter since public education is free).
Care to explain to a foreigner?
Cheers!
(edited to correct typos)
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"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
| Edited by - perrodetokio on 03/11/2008 12:06:39 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2008 : 05:19:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
Being from another country, I do not understand the concept of PUBLIC SCHOOLS = GOOD EDUCATION and PRIVATE SCHOOLS = BAD EDUCATION. In my country itīs the other way around. Except for universities in which the public ones have higher standards (which is in someway a filter since public education is free).
Care to explain to a foreigner?
Cheers!
(edited to correct typos)
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Generally, you have it backwards. Private schools are usually considered 'better' around here, except for the few woo schools who teach YEC, but even then they are usually better in the other subjects.
The complaint is that the majority of funding comes from local support in each area. Voters are allowed to choose to increase funding to their local public schools when needed. Wealthy communities therefor tend to have much better schools in most regards, compounding the class/racial divide in this country. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2008 : 17:06:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The complaint is that the majority of funding comes from local support in each area. Voters are allowed to choose to increase funding to their local public schools when needed. Wealthy communities therefor tend to have much better schools in most regards, compounding the class/racial divide in this country.
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Ah, I see. The local support thing doesn't work that way here. Public funded schools generally get an even* slice of the pie, although budgets and program specifics vary from state to state.
I would've assumed "Local support" to be funds raised by the community for their local schools. Thanks for the heads up!
* Well, "even" for some complex calculation weighted with various factors, including the number of students, teachers, some socio-economic factors and, quite possibly, the phase of the moon. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 13:27:33 [Permalink]
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Thanks, BPS for explaining.
Cheers! |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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the seeker
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 16:24:52 [Permalink]
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Sorry that I have not replied in so long: but yes, I shall elaborate on this further:
What I was trying to point out was:
Yes, I do believe that the public school system is corrupt, but that is a bit of a generalization from the inferences I've made by observing my area and my area only. Your state may differ.
I am not sure if it was intentional or not for it to be this way--but since public schools have been open for decades, I can't exactly go back and compare and contrast since schools back in the days of their founding were entirely different. I do, however know that even back in the colonial days, education was provided mostly for the rich.
A lot of things seem to be for the satisfaction of those who are well off. A lot of this results from social darwinism--the belief in survival at the fittest in society. But then again, it may just seem this way because George W.Bush has been president for half my life.
As for the foreigner who asked about the public school system in the states: there are many different public schools, a lot of them are average; decent, I guess, but the ones in the poorer areas have very poor schooling. Their curriculum is not as advanced, and their environment doesn't exactly motivate them either. Some of their teachers do try hard, but others couldn't really care considering that there aren't very many standards they have to meet. The richer schools compete for ribbons and test scores, that's why they are so competitive and into state tests and whatnot. It's mostly about reputation, considering that with all the cash they have floating around, they can afford to buy themselves one by expanding the curriculum until it seems like 50% of your school are "gifted children". I've seen them place some moderately unintelligent kids in honors classes only because they were hoping that it would motivate them to do and learn better so they can get better test scores.
A lot of the times, this actually works--I believe that everyone has a limit in their intelligence, and a lot of the times, people really aren't that DUMB, they're just ignorant. So the richer schools beat themselves up to push their students to not only do well, but to be the BEST, the average schools just try to make sure they get through high school and make it into college--and then the poorer schools are just crossing their fingers just hoping that their students will actually GRADUATE high school and not end up getting caught up in drug dealing or prostitution (yes, I am exaggerating, I'm not saying that every poor student at a poor school ends up in jail).
And they grow up to be almost exactly what their environment (75% of it being school) planned for them to be, and they reproduce and create spawns of themselves to follow their paths in life so the corruption of class struggles can be furthered on to the next generation. |
My signature consists of my not having a signature. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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the seeker
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 19:46:03 [Permalink]
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Yes, you have a good point there, but I never said that it was the school system itself. In the first post in this topic, I actually stated that it was the government.
Where do the taxes go to? The state government.
The way they make it work is that the better the property, the more taxes you have to pay. The more taxes you pay, the better your school is.
Once again, everything seems to come down to money. And they say that public education is free of charge too...that it's open to "everyone". But really, if you don't have enough money to buy the property in a certain prosperous area and pay the taxes that come with it....then you don't get the good education. |
My signature consists of my not having a signature. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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UniConst
New Member
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 08:22:46 [Permalink]
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This may be a bit off-topic, particularly on a "religion-unfriendly" site, but:
This morning there was a flick on TV featuring 2 fifth graders or so in a public school on an imaginary escapism trip ['Bridge to Terabithia']. The school was portrayed as a disipline abomination (8th grade girls were changing a buck to use the school bathroom) with the teachers exercising little-to-no control.
I spent my first 8 years in a Catholic school where dicipline was very strict and none of the portrayed misbehaviours would have been been tolerated.
Think that there is MUCH to be said for schools run by religious orders -- even Wicans and "registered" members of the "Church of Atheism". |
The Universe is not constant. |
| Edited by - UniConst on 12/14/2008 08:44:35 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 09:37:02 [Permalink]
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UniConst wrote: | Think that there is MUCH to be said for schools run by religious orders |
A lot of religious schools are better quality than public schools in poor neighborhoods, but I think that has to do with the same reason why independent schools in general - secular or religious - tend to be better. They are smaller, they have much better student to teacher ratios, and they tend to have a lot of parent involvement.
| -- even Wicans and "registered" members of the "Church of Atheism". |
I wasn't aware that Wiccans and Church of Sagan members ran their own schools. Are you joking? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 17:40:28 [Permalink]
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Well; the system is screwy, fo' sure, because local funding means that the schools located in rich centers will get more money than schools in poorer places.
A 'redistributive' action of the government will compensate for that, to some extend, but the sums allocated are too limited to do much. This is because a) The American public is very reluctant to see tax increases, even for educations as illustrated by referendums on the usbjects and b) The politicians probably do not care much about the subject as this is not an area that would help them gain votes.
As a consequence, the local schools in the poorer districts are broke, understaffed, with professors that wish nothing more than to leave as soon as they get a better offering and a run down infrastructure.
This coupled with the other difficulties that the students attending these schools will face (in general, little parental involvement, lack of positive role model, prevalence of drug and violence that present itself as an easier, faster and more 'natural' alternative...) means that these schools will have abismal results.
And of course, thanks to Georgie's no kid left behind, these schools in difficulty are now receiving even less funding, hence compounding the problem... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Education = class struggles
