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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2009 : 12:28:10 [Permalink]
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This article's about Ford and how it's not accepting government loans is probably a mistake. It explains the Japanese car company's "business model" of getting loans from their government when they apparently don't even need them so they can have a bigger advantage over their US rivals. The Japanese government is also helping the "business model" by puting forward $5 billion in US dollars from it's trillion dollar reserve so it's car makers can make low interest loans in the US market. And here in the US the majority of us want to kill our car companies, freely throw away an entire industry. Only very grudgingly is any help given. I'm sure the Japanese appreciate our committment to the capitalist ideal.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2009/03/06/ford-may-be-last-man-standing.aspx |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 03/06/2009 12:33:16 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 20:27:31 [Permalink]
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The company I work for was founded in 1994 by 12 people. These people invested their own money and alot of time and work to make the company sucessful. Today it employs over 300 people including myself. The 12 original owners recently were bought out of the company. They each recieved alot of money and are rich and most have retired. The company now is 100% employee owned. Everyone gets stock in the company.
Why should the government take 40% of their money for being sucessful? Are these rich people evil and need to be watched as halfmooner said? Buisnesses create jobs and not government. Governments spend money and buisness creates wealth for its employees. I am making a good living because of these 12 people along with 300 other people. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 23:52:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Why should the government take 40% of their money for being sucessful? |
Ask your Representatives. From Wikipedia:History of top rates
- In 1913, the tax rate was 1% on taxable net income above $3,000 ($4,000 for married couples), less deductions and exemptions. It rose to a rate of 7% on incomes above $500,000.
- During World War I, the top rate rose to 77%; after the war, the top rate was scaled down to a low of 25%.
- During the Great Depression and World War II, the top income tax rate rose again. In the Internal Revenue Code of 1939, the top rate was 75%. The top rate reached 94% during the war and remained at 91% until 1964.
- In 1964 the top rate was decreased to 70% (1964 Revenue Act), then to 50% in 1981 (Economic Recovery Tax Act or ERTA).
- The Tax Reform Act of 1986 reduced the top rate to 28%, at the same time raising the bottom rate from 11% to 15% (in fact 15% and 28% became the only two tax brackets).
- During the 1990s the top rate rose again, standing at 39.6% by the end of the decade.
- The top rate was cut to 35% and the bottom rate was cut to 10% by the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA).
The point being, some eras have been more "fair" than others.
Of course, nobody actually paid 94%. There were deductions galore.
And, of course, the lower brackets kick in first. In 1913, a person with no deductions and an income of $3,100 would owe $1 in tax, for an effective tax rate of 0.03%, because the first $3,000 was tax-free.
Obama's 39.6% rate doesn't kick in until the 250,000th dollar of income, because we've got marginal taxes here. Money which, under Bush, was being taxed at 33% or 35% anyway. It's not like rich folks are suddenly going to owe double what they did before.
And don't forget that what Obama's plan calls for is for Bush's tax cuts to actually expire in 2011, which was the plan when they were passed originally. Prudent high-earners should have been planning for this "tax hike" for the last three years already. Obama hasn't proposed anything radically new. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 04:11:13 [Permalink]
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I am making a good living because of these 12 people along with 300 other people.
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Chances are, they did well by taking advantage of the social structure, and they benefit from it, not in spite of it. In fact, they are the ones that have the most influence in how the social structure is created and run. Why wouldn't they be the ones that chip in most to pay for it? Why would people who are left out of the system, who have little disposable income, and little influence, pay for it? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 13:25:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I am making a good living because of these 12 people along with 300 other people.
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Chances are, they did well by taking advantage of the social structure, and they benefit from it, not in spite of it. In fact, they are the ones that have the most influence in how the social structure is created and run. Why wouldn't they be the ones that chip in most to pay for it? Why would people who are left out of the system, who have little disposable income, and little influence, pay for it?
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I don't totally know what you are talking about "social structure". My point is that these 12 people took a risk that most people including myself are not willing to take but we benefit from their risk and hard work by having a decent paying job. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 15:14:26 [Permalink]
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| They also benefit from risks that you were willing to make that they weren't willing to make. They also benefit more from the fact that government provides such things as corporations, roads, laws, patents, licences, etc., etc. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 05:02:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
They also benefit from risks that you were willing to make that they weren't willing to make. They also benefit more from the fact that government provides such things as corporations, roads, laws, patents, licences, etc., etc.
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To your point, the government maintains the structure of civilization by which the economy functions. It's the reason we're not living in caves and clubbing each other over the head for a half rotten haunch of dear for a living. And maintaining civilization costs money. Those who benefit the most economically from the functions of the government, and who have a very large levels of disposable income, ought to pay a little more to support those functions. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 06:35:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
To your point, the government maintains the structure of civilization by which the economy functions. It's the reason we're not living in caves and clubbing each other over the head for a half rotten haunch of dear for a living. And maintaining civilization costs money. Those who benefit the most economically from the functions of the government, and who have a very large levels of disposable income, ought to pay a little more to support those functions. |
In even simpler terms, rich people have more to lose if cops, firemen, land records (etc.) were to suddenly vanish. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 03:15:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Student Loans are pure evil! I've never had one at all. But I have friends who are indebted, ENSLAVED to this vile putrid usurious practice for going on 15 years. Now that the economy is in a dowturn, they can't pay it back and pay rent. Where is the gov't help?
It should be grants not loans. The dividend is hard working industrious educated citizenry that contribute to the society at large. No some banker. |
Should the government really fix every problem someone gets into? If you choose to take a loan, you are committing to pay it back yourself, not with the tax dollars of other people. If you do not like the terms the banks are offering, you do not have to take the loan. You can only be "enslaved" to the bank if you choose to take their money.
There are lots of grants if you qualify (Pell Grant is huge). There are also many academic scholarships for which you can compete. My state actually gives a scholarship to pay full tuition at an in-state public college to anyone who scores slightly above the national average SAT score (you only have to keep a 2.5 or 3.0 GPA, I forget). Some other states have similar programs. Practically every college has its own grants and scholarships as well.
If people hard on test scores and high school grades and there are lots of monies available for college. I went to undergrad nearly free on nothing but academic scholarships. If you also demonstrate financial need, you qualify for many more scholarships as well as grants. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 05:49:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by WarfRat
Student Loans are pure evil! I've never had one at all. But I have friends who are indebted, ENSLAVED to this vile putrid usurious practice for going on 15 years. Now that the economy is in a dowturn, they can't pay it back and pay rent. Where is the gov't help?
It should be grants not loans. The dividend is hard working industrious educated citizenry that contribute to the society at large. No some banker. |
Should the government really fix every problem someone gets into? If you choose to take a loan, you are committing to pay it back yourself, not with the tax dollars of other people. If you do not like the terms the banks are offering, you do not have to take the loan. You can only be "enslaved" to the bank if you choose to take their money.
There are lots of grants if you qualify (Pell Grant is huge). There are also many academic scholarships for which you can compete. My state actually gives a scholarship to pay full tuition at an in-state public college to anyone who scores slightly above the national average SAT score (you only have to keep a 2.5 or 3.0 GPA, I forget). Some other states have similar programs. Practically every college has its own grants and scholarships as well.
If people hard on test scores and high school grades and there are lots of monies available for college. I went to undergrad nearly free on nothing but academic scholarships. If you also demonstrate financial need, you qualify for many more scholarships as well as grants.
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I believe the government's role is not to fix every problem someone gets into, but it should help people get out of problems they can't get out of on their own.
My wife paid her own way through college via grants, loans and working. When we got married she had gigantic student loan debt but because she got a very good job (eventually) we were able to pay those loans back in a reasonable time. In her case those loans were a good investment (though she's never worked a day in the field she studied).
However, not everyone's that fortunate. Some people end up having to defer their loans or only make interest only payments for years. It might seem just and fitting to tell them tough shit, you shouldn't have studdied library science. But again, what kid fresh out of highschool has any clue what they're going to be doing when they get out of college? I know I didn't. Who deserves to be consigned to a mountain of debt they can never pay back because of a decision they made with no real knowledge at such a young age? And going to college is typically a good decision recommended by everyone - it's not like they bought swamp land in Florida.
Now, I'm not saying people should be absolved of their student loan debts. But there has to be some reasonable medium between crushing debt and a get out of debt free card. I suppose they could declare bankruptcy, but my guess is there's a better way. And that better way isn't going to be found without government intervention.
BTW - the idea that people financially crippled with student loan debts should not be helped because they should have gotten grants and scholarships instead of loans is, well, pretty stupid. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 05:53:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Should the government really fix every problem someone gets into? If you choose to take a loan, you are committing to pay it back yourself, not with the tax dollars of other people. If you do not like the terms the banks are offering, you do not have to take the loan. You can only be "enslaved" to the bank if you choose to take their money. |
This isn't just any ol' loan. Our society greatly encourages higher education, and so should be active (through the government) in ensuring that the funding for such education doesn't become a burden on those who, in good faith, accept it and intend to be educated.
Instead, there is a thick-enough miasma of forms and applications that people can make a profit writing books about how to get grants and scholarships from the Feds. So it's no surprise that people sometimes take loans that they probably don't need, simply because they don't know and the government isn't helping.
In an ideal world, an acceptance letter from a college, university or even trade school would be sent to the student along with a detailed printout explaining how much of the cost will be paid by the Federal, state and/or local governments, minus any scholarships the student has already secured. The student can then focus on obtaining private grants, more scholarships, or if need be loans to cover any balance that might remain.
In other words, if we're going to value higher education so much that we (as a society) will hand out money for it, then we should actually hand it out, and not force students to beg for it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 15:29:27 [Permalink]
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The government does hand out lots of money for college students, which I am not arguing against. My state may do particularly well in this respect with the "Promise Scholarship" program (there are lots of similar programs in different states/localities/etc), which pays full tuition if you score slightly above the national average SAT score and 3.0 GPA. These are some modest requirements which most students can achieve (though some may need to work harder than others).
Nearly every undergrad and grad school to which I was accepted actually did send me a financial aid packet along with the acceptance letter (I applied to lots both times so I could compare which schools would give me which scholarships, etc). The packets usually detail the most common institutional and government scholarships and grants. You can know pretty far in advance which schools will offer you what. Most institutional, government, and private scholarships and grants also make decisions on who gets what before the end of the previous school year.
Chaloobi, I am not saying students in debt should not be helped because they did not get grants and scholarships, but rather because taking a loan is a calculated risk and the decisions are made by college students, who are adults, even if young ones. However, those who did not do the research on grants and scholarships and apply for them did probably increase the amount of the loan they took -- this is only a secondary argument. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 06:08:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Chaloobi, I am not saying students in debt should not be helped because they did not get grants and scholarships, but rather because taking a loan is a calculated risk and the decisions are made by college students, who are adults, even if young ones. However, those who did not do the research on grants and scholarships and apply for them did probably increase the amount of the loan they took -- this is only a secondary argument.
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The secondary argument appears completely irrelevant to the primary argument. That said, is your primary argument that anyone who has more student loan debt than they can make payments on, regardless of circumstance, should be told 'tough shit, you should have known better' and barred from any help? |
-Chaloobi
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 10:54:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Chaloobi, I am not saying students in debt should not be helped because they did not get grants and scholarships, but rather because taking a loan is a calculated risk and the decisions are made by college students, who are adults, even if young ones. However, those who did not do the research on grants and scholarships and apply for them did probably increase the amount of the loan they took -- this is only a secondary argument.
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The secondary argument appears completely irrelevant to the primary argument. That said, is your primary argument that anyone who has more student loan debt than they can make payments on, regardless of circumstance, should be told 'tough shit, you should have known better' and barred from any help?
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Agreed, my secondary argument is not particularly relevant to my primary argument, just a general suggestion for prudence in making decisions about paying for college. Choosing not to research grants and scholarships does make it more likely that you will get more loans and, therefore, be at more risk to get into too much debt.
Anyway, we already have mechanisms to relieve debt. That's why we have chapter 13 bankruptcy. It allows people to keep property, avoid foreclosure if they own homes, and restructure payment plans on debt. Of course it is not a fun process, but getting into debt is not a good thing.
Original poster -- since when are Republicans the only ones who give money to large corporations? Have you not seen the last stimulus package? Or the money paid to car companies in the 70s? I am opposed to both, but Republicans are certainly not the only ones who do it, or even necessarily the largest culprits. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 11:29:08 [Permalink]
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The government does not necessarily have a duty to fix problems the loaners get themselves in.
However, the government job is to encourage the behaviours it find positive.
By setting up and founding universities, the government send the message that higher education is a good thing. It would then be logical and consistent to help out and encourage the citizens that desire to get such a higher education. A good way to do that is to reduce or even eliminate totally the drawbacks associated with getting it, for example, by reducing the amount of debt the students are racking up... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Why do Republicans hate the poor?
