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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2009 : 16:24:30 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
Here's my deal: I could say, "the President can ignore laws," and with luck, anyone who hears it will blow me off as a nutcase. Some private-practice lawyer could say the same thing, and people should ignore him, too. Is it just the fact that these particular authors worked for the Attorney General that makes them culpable for the President's actions here?
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If you didn't work for the president's administration, in a politically appointed job, then it would just be crank advice, yes.
And it goes further than just them working for the AG, its that and the fact that their "advice" was used to cover up criminal activity and obstruct prosecutions. Bush and his people obviously violated the law, the DOJ refused to even investigate (say nothing of press charges) because of these lengthy justifications given by Yoo et.al.
It total it is a conspiracy to break the law and avoid consequences.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 15:40:45 [Permalink]
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I don't want to continue whipping this topic, but I've been thinking about it a little.
If you go to your lawyer and inform him you intend to break a law, and request his assistance in getting away with it, and he helps you, even with just "advice"... isn't your lawyer joining with you in a conspiracy to commit a crime? And if you go ahead and commit that crime, isn't your lawyer subject to prosecution as well?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 07:41:57 [Permalink]
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Yes he would be (I guess).
But it is not (not necessarily) what Yoo did. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 07:48:11 [Permalink]
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| You is facing a bunch of investigations right now. I think we're going to have to wait and see what, if any, criminal charges arise from these, and why. I've reached the end of my legal knowledge. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 10:12:00 [Permalink]
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I did it a while ago, didn't stop me from posting... ;p
But I am not expecting Yoo to get condemned... We'll see. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 11:22:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
You is facing a bunch of investigations right now. I think we're going to have to wait and see what, if any, criminal charges arise from these, and why. I've reached the end of my legal knowledge.
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My gut says that uncovering further evidence of collaboration will be crucial to getting any charges to stick. If not, you may very well be correct that Yoo will skate on the grounds that he acted in good faith, as misguided as his advice may have been. I hope not, but we'll have to see what the investigations uncover.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2009 : 20:44:45 [Permalink]
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I spoke to a lawyer acquaintance of mine about this sort of thing. Bottom line is that lawyers face no more problems for being lawyers than anyone else who might advise another person to do something inadvisable ( ). In other words, it doesn't matter whether I suggest that HalfMooner kill his family, or Half's lawyer suggests it. If Half goes and does it, we would each face the same legal responsibility (somewhere from none to 100%, depending on how sane Half is, I suppose). The bottom line is that if Yoo's advice to Bush rises to the level of a criminal conspiracy, it doesn't matter whether Yoo is a lawyer or not, and it doesn't matter what his job is. Legally, that is. Morally is a whole different question, of course.
The lawyer also told me, interestingly, that most lawyers who get disbarred do so because they've been convicted of a crime, not because they've simply done something unethical. This suggests that unless Yoo gets charged and convicted of something (perhaps conspiracy), he probably won't even get disbarred.
The lawyer also reminded me that violating the Fourth Amendment is not a crime by itself. Unlawful searches result in civil lawsuits, not jail time (just like violations of other civil rights). Perhaps unlawful searches are made crimes in some state or local codes, but I doubt the Federal laws make them a crime.
The torture, on the other hand, is stickier, of course. But I only got the chance to ask a couple of questions.
However, it's wrong to call it a "cover up," as Dude did. The memos' intent is to say that these acts aren't unlawful at all, so no cover-up would be required. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2009 : 03:53:33 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| However, it's wrong to call it a "cover up," as Dude did. The memos' intent is to say that these acts aren't unlawful at all, so no cover-up would be required. |
I disagree with your assessment of the documents. After reading the parts available it seems apparent that this "advice" is little more than a strategy to avoid consequences for criminal wrongdoing. It is just one part of the overall conspiracy, but I'd still say it is effective as a cover up. They hid the crime for a long time and when it came to light they had the "legal opinion" of Yoo et al ready to forstall investigation and prosecutions. And if blocking an investigation isn't a "cover up", then we are not using the same definition for the phrase.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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More revelation about Bush' 'justice' memos
