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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:06:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Would you hold a person to it? If I signed this document and then developed a terminal disease that this kind research has been used to find a cure for, would you let live if I wanted to use the cure? Or would you let me die because I disagreed with you on an ethical issue? |
It's not that you disagreed with pleco, it's that you disagreed with the research getting done in the first place. This hypothetical scenario is a test of a pro-lifer's convictions. If "killing babies" is wrong in order to research cures for diseases, then why in the world would you ever choose to use a killed-baby cure to spare your own life? "If thy right hand offend thee..." oh, wait, that's supposedly about masturbation, right?
I wouldn't put you in prison or deny you the treatment, of course. A scarlet letter H is really tempting, though. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:25:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by pleco
I just want all of those against this to sign a formal document swearing, under penalty of prison, that they will not in any way use any medical benefits of this technology for themselves, nor receive any benefits from another person, nor give any of the benefits to another person.
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Would you hold a person to it? If I signed this document and then developed a terminal disease that this kind research has been used to find a cure for, would you let live if I wanted to use the cure? Or would you let me die because I disagreed with you on an ethical issue?
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But, that'd be rather hypocritical, isn't it?
Being against something until it directly benefit you...
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Yes it would be hypocritical. What would you do? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:26:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I'd let you die for hypocracy's sake...feel free to let me die for whatever reason you see fit.
Seriously though,
In this hypothetical future would you have changed your stance on the ethics of it?
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No |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:45:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Now -- at long last! -- such research can begin in earnest.
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You'd hope.
But they've been doing work on fetal tissue since the 30's. In the late 70's and early 80's there was the push for Federal Funding. To sell it to the public they said it COULD cure Parkinsons and Alzheimers.
Parkinsons and Alzheimers are still there but we now know more about pre-natal issues.
Now it's Stem Cells..bring out the dog and pony show....again.
I am understandably skeptical about it.
This keeps on looking like snake oil to me. They should focus on the human genome project.
Don't get me wrong, there will be some great discoveries made in this research. But don't give me that sales pitch. It like that feed the children ad. |
"But they've been doing work on fetal tissue since the 30's." Not on stem cells, "they" haven't.
You're welcome to be just as pessimistic as you like about the potential benefits of fetal stem cell research. For eight years, the President of the US has been largely suppressing such research in the US, keeping our scientific knowledge backward. Now, it seems to me you're using this politically induced scientific ignorance of potential fetal stem cell benefits to justify not resuming research.
This seems akin to telling Columbus that ignorance of what's out in the Atlantic means nothing is out there.
Yeah, we don't know what science will discover. We never do, until we go looking.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/10/2009 13:46:37 |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 14:22:07 [Permalink]
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Judas Priest Half talk about missing the point.
If you read my post, did I state that I opposed to stem cell research?
You're right we don't know what we will discover. So keep your (not you Half) ffing trap shut about "miracle cure for Alzheimers or paralysis". It has been said before.
This is making the Parkinson and Alzheimer patient into a modern day Tantalus. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 14:55:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Yes it would be hypocritical. What would you do?
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Fuck... It would be more than hypocritical actually. You'd be perfectly fine to deny a medicine (essentially, handing them a death sentence) to other people because it offend your 'principles' to research it, but you'd be fine using it yourself.
I wouldn't do anything, of course as I am really pro-life and try to keep my fellow human beings (a category that do not, please note, include foetuses) alive in every circumstances... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 15:09:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Judas Priest Half talk about missing the point.
If you read my post, did I state that I opposed to stem cell research? |
My apologies for not getting your point correctly.You're right we don't know what we will discover. So keep your (not you Half) ffing trap shut about "miracle cure for Alzheimers or paralysis". It has been said before.
This is making the Parkinson and Alzheimer patient into a modern day Tantalus. |
The potential benefits are very great for the treatment of these conditions, as well as for stroke sufferers such as myself, and for many others. And the value to science of simple research science in the whole field would justify a huge investment, even if there were not known potential health benefits such as replacing dead neurons with new.
No, we don't know for certain that such therapy will ever work, but the possibilities seem strong. Actual benefits from such a huge new field shouldn't be expected immediately. When they will come, even if they will come, is inherently unpredictable.
We would be foolish to complain that a probe just launched on a four-year trip to Mars hasn't yet been of any use to understanding the Red Planet. Some patience is needed.
If we're in agreement on this, great, we're in agreement.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 16:37:47 [Permalink]
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We are in agreement.
That thing that irks me the way politicians get involved in this.
You had the right dragging out kids saying "If you are for it you are killing these babies" and you had the left dragging out the Alzheimers and Parkinsons patient. "If you oppose you want these people to suffer". It should be left to the medical ethicists. Not appeals to emotion (logical fallacy) by politicians.
I am tired of that crap by those people. Aren't you?
When Da Vinci did autopsies to figure out how the human body worked, the church wanted to vivisect him.
People on the far left look on the space missions and moon missions with disdain. Apparently we are wasting money to them 
Forgive me I am on rant my blood is up. (my grammar sucks when that happens)
I know in the 50's the gov't poured money into science programs in schools. To me the crowning achievement was not Apollo 11 but Apollo 13. These guys were saved by a slide rule and trained minds.
What do we have now, rocket scientists who don't know the difference between metric and imperial  And politicians whipping out science like snake oil when it is politically expedient.
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"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
| Edited by - WarfRat on 03/10/2009 16:50:42 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 16:39:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Robb
Yes it would be hypocritical. What would you do?
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Fuck... It would be more than hypocritical actually. You'd be perfectly fine to deny a medicine (essentially, handing them a death sentence) to other people because it offend your 'principles' to research it, but you'd be fine using it yourself.
I wouldn't do anything, of course as I am really pro-life and try to keep my fellow human beings (a category that do not, please note, include foetuses) alive in every circumstances...
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So you would let a person die by not doing anything? Human feotuses grow into humans if given a chance. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 16:55:00 [Permalink]
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| No they don't. The woman's body could reject the embryo and absorb it. Does that make her a child murderer? |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:10:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Human feotuses grow into humans if given a chance. |
Pedantically, we're talking about embryos, not fetuses. A human embryo becomes a fetus between somewhere around seven or eight weeks into a pregnancy.
And I'm still wondering who can really say that they know that God does not intend for some embryos to be used this way. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:16:15 [Permalink]
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Good piece from Jason Rosenhouse, Embryonic Stem-Cell Research Poses No Moral Dilemmas:...the two-week old embryo is not a human being. It's that simple. It is literally just a clump of cells. It is the height of moral confusion to think otherwise.
The embryo has no thoughts, no capacity for suffering, no consciousness. It has none of the attributes that distinguishes a human being from other sorts of life...
The embryo can not perceive or act upon anything. They are not the “whole thing.” They have the potentiality to become the whole thing given the right environment and plenty of time, but that is a very different thing. The seed is not the plant. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:20:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
Human feotuses grow into humans if given a chance. |
Pedantically, we're talking about embryos, not fetuses. A human embryo becomes a fetus between somewhere around seven or eight weeks into a pregnancy.
And I'm still wondering who can really say that they know that God does not intend for some embryos to be used this way.
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I propose expanding this to a "Science of the Gaps" hypothesis:
Whatever isn't covered indisputably and without contradiction by the Bible should automatically be considered as explainable by science.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 19:19:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Robb
Yes it would be hypocritical. What would you do?
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Fuck... It would be more than hypocritical actually. You'd be perfectly fine to deny a medicine (essentially, handing them a death sentence) to other people because it offend your 'principles' to research it, but you'd be fine using it yourself.
I wouldn't do anything, of course as I am really pro-life and try to keep my fellow human beings (a category that do not, please note, include foetuses) alive in every circumstances...
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So you would let a person die by not doing anything? Human feotuses grow into humans if given a chance.
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So what?
Many of my spermatozoides, many of any woman's ova could become humans if given a chance.
By your reasoning, we should arrest any woman buying tampons, she is comiting murder by not being pregnant this time.
Hell, every human cells could become a human being if its nucleus was transplanted into an ovum.
Obviously 'could grow into a human' is meaningless.
But, most with the quote from Jason's Rosenhouse that Dave gave.
Embryos at this age are but an undifferentiated lump of cells.
Looking at it objectively, they have no brain to speak of and are more different from us than we are from a newt (I got better). |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 01:18:23 [Permalink]
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For those who were wondering about the ethical problems involved, it's two week old fetuses that would be used.
There is no blood ("the life of the flesh is in the blood" the bible says), there is no nervous system, there are no organs. There is nothing there to feel pain, to send or recieve pain signals yet.
The embryo has no thoughts, no capacity for suffering, no consciousness. It has none of the attributes that distinguishes a human being from other sorts of life. Medical research on animals, which certainly have the capacity to suffer and arguably, at least in mammals, have limited consciousness, is far more morally problematic. Yet even here most people, myself included, are willing to swallow hard and tolerate it for the undeniable good such research does.
It is monstrous to elevate the early embryo to such a status that you are willing to ignore the real suffering of people afflicted with dread diseases. You can spare me the nonsense about adult stem cells, or how you are not ignoring suffering you are just maintaining high moral standards. Baloney. You are rejecting the most promising line of research anyone has come up with to date because you have preposterously convinced yourself that an embryo, once formed, must never be destroyed. You are personally telling sick people that it is better that they suffer, deteriorate and die than that an undifferentiated group of cells be prevented from reaching its full potential. How dare you then turn around and lecture other people about morality. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Obama to restore stem cell funding
