|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2009 : 23:35:53 [Permalink]
|
Historically, the fall of a party has been short-lived in the US and it did tend to allow the party with a strong grip on power to go too far, causing the rise of another party. The country has returned to a two-party system before too long every time a party has collapsed.
I am interested in how certain European countries came to have so many small parties, whether they had a two-party system that fragmented or they just developed with small parties. It seems this allows coalitions to form when incentives happen to align between parties, which has some advantages.
Not sure whether or not it is a better system to have many parties because democracy does get more difficult when there are more than two (real) options. Choice may is not be transitive (if people prefer candidate A to candidate B and candidate B to candidate C, they do not necessarily prefer candidate A to candidate C) and it is hard to systematically translate a single election into an accurate reflection of public choice (i.e. if 40% support party A, 30% support party B, and 30% support party C and most in party B like party C more than party A -- party A would win a popular vote, but party C would win if people were choosing between party A and party C. Multiple rounds of elections may be translated better, but that also leads to lower voter turnout. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
 |
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2009 : 23:50:21 [Permalink]
|
I find the difference strange, too. I'm still not sure what the dynamics are that make a two-party system stable in the US, while multiple parties thrive in Europe. There are certainly no constitutional requirements for such systems on either continent, but that's how it works.
Are cultural differences the cause, or are we seeing what naturally develops due to government structure? Does a more unified government with a parliamentary system somehow encourage many parties, while a fractured political system like the US with many governments and division of power encourage just two parties?
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 07:03:12 [Permalink]
|
Well; I only lived in France and the UK for any amount of time. In the UK, the system is close enough for a two party system.
In France, there are a wide number of parties of various size but, in effect, the same coalitions form just about all the time. One around the French socialist party (representing center left, essentially the same as the Democrate party) and one around the Right wing party (UMP, used to be called Rally for the Republic).
So, in effect, it is almost two parties and all presidents since the seventies came from either party...
The main objective difference that I can see explaining the multitude of parties, outside of cultural factors, is the lower cost of elections.
Essentially, provided you earn enough votes to be realistically called a voice of the people -I think it might be around 5%-, the government will re-imburse a certain sum you spend in your campaign. That does not allow crazy campaign budgets like here in the US, but it does get adds printed, fliers distributed and TV spots aired, so it is not nothing. In fact I remember a small left wing party that actually would have gotten significantly more money back that they spend; I think it was agreed for them to only receive what they spent though.
I think this need to raise so much money during National elections is really what keep smaller parties in check in the US. But Obama did great during the primaries with quite little money. Maybe there is hope for a volunteer driven internet powered democracy to rise... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 09:49:49 [Permalink]
|
| We do have public funding for some campaigns provided the candidates reject private donors, but in effect, candidates in larger elections get far less money than a candidate could get through private funding. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 16:03:55 [Permalink]
|
That makes sense to me, Simon. Thanks for the international perspective.
Yeah, Machi4velli, I think you got that right. Public funding for elections is half-assed in the US. IMO, if we want to combat corruption, we better make it more practical. And the total expenses under a public-funding system wouldn't have to match the ridiculous sums spent now. They'd just have to be enough to get the candidates' messages to the voters.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 20:24:35 [Permalink]
|
No problem.
Yes, I think that the sheer amount of money spend in the big elections is a detriment for the smallest parties. But, at a deep cultural level, that's also a reflection of the libertarianism / capitalism in American culture... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 20:53:40 [Permalink]
|
There would have to be some threshold, every party probably should not get the same amount of airtime/advertising, because some parties are very small.
The big parties are also obstacles to public funding. They give party money to campaigns, probably more than has been offered from public funds. They would not easily give that power up because they can choose who to fund, and kick out who they don't like, giving them a bad chance of winning. The Democrats chose not to fund Lieberman a few years ago and essentially caused him to lose the Democratic primary, but he entered the general as an independent and won. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2009 : 23:39:23 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Machi4velli
There would have to be some threshold, every party probably should not get the same amount of airtime/advertising, because some parties are very small.
The big parties are also obstacles to public funding. They give party money to campaigns, probably more than has been offered from public funds. They would not easily give that power up because they can choose who to fund, and kick out who they don't like, giving them a bad chance of winning. The Democrats chose not to fund Lieberman a few years ago and essentially caused him to lose the Democratic primary, but he entered the general as an independent and won.
|
I wouldn't want to see the likes of the Natural Law Party get even enough funds to draw much attention nationally. They are a waste of time, why be a waste of money, too? There should be a registration number threshold requirement to get funds, and a sliding scale to get more. For instance, I don't want to wake up someday to find some Nazi party running TV commercial on my dime.
With a party as wide-open and diverse as the Democratic Party, it takes a real renegade to be, in effect, ousted. Joe Lieberman deserves that label, in spades. I don't know why he won't just join the NeoCon GOP. After all, he was a featured speaker at the Republican Convention!
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/15/2009 23:43:22 |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 08:28:32 [Permalink]
|
Indeed, as I mentioned, in France, only parties gathering above a certain numbers of votes get their money back. The threshold is low enough that ten or so parties generally make the cut.
If such a system existed in the US, I'd expect at least one white supremacist party to make it. It is unpleasant, but they do represent a portion of the voters. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:11:54 [Permalink]
|
| Lieberman differs from the GOP in may ways. Pro-choice, rated 88/100 by the Human Rights Campaign (LGBT group), F from the NRA, pro embryonic stem cell research. Doesn't really fit in with the GOP anymore than the Democrats. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2009 : 12:16:11 [Permalink]
|
Pat Robertson; ever a scumbag.
By now, everyone not living in a hermitage has been hit with the faux-outraged blather from the mendicant wing of American politics concerning our service men and women being accused of becoming possible terrorists. Now, Pat the Prat has joined the chorus. Pat Robertson, on The 700 Club yesterday, got in on the collective right-wing teeth-gnashing over that Department of Homeland Security bulletin on the threat posed by right-wing extremists in America.
You know, the controversy that's been demonstrated to be a lot of hot air -- not to mention a terribly revealing one about how mainstream right-wingers see themselves.
Not that such mere trifles would ever deter Pat Robertson. His attack on the DHS yesterday, alongside his coanchor Terry Meeuwsen, featured an unending stream of flatly false information and mischaracterizations. Plus, of course, the requisite gay-bashing and liberal bashing, all wrapped up in a neat little ball:
Robertson: If that had been a Republican, there would be outrage and screams for Janet Napolitano to resign immediately. That -- Terry, you're somebody who favors life, wants to keep little babies alive. Somebody who has been a veteran and served our country as a proud member of the military. Somebody who is opposed to the left-wing policies of the administration and who wants to express his or her views as they are entitled to under our Constitution, these people are now being stigmatized as terrorists! This is an outrage!
|
Of course, there is more to the story than merely the mouthings of losers spreading their delusions: By CAM SIMPSON and GARY FIELDS
WASHINGTON -- The Federal Bureau of Investigation earlier this year launched a nationwide operation targeting white supremacists and "militia/sovereign-citizen extremist groups," including a focus on veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan, according to memos sent from bureau headquarters to field offices.
The initiative, dubbed Operation Vigilant Eagle, was outlined in February, two months before a memo giving a similar warning was issued on April 7 by the Department of Homeland Security.
Disclosure of the DHS memo this week has sparked controversy among some conservatives and veterans groups. Appearing on television talk shows Thursday, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano defended the assessment, but apologized to veterans who saw it as an accusation.
"This is an assessment of things just to be wary of, not to infringe on constitutional rights, certainly not to malign our veterans," she said on NBC's Today Show.
The documents outlining Operation Vigilant Eagle cite a surge in activity by such groups. The memos say the FBI's focus on veterans began as far back as December, during the final weeks of the Bush administration, when the bureau's domestic counterterrorism division formed a special joint working group with the Defense Department.
Associated Press
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, pictured this month in Mexico, defended the assessment Thursday but apologized to veterans.
A Feb. 23 draft memo from FBI domestic counterterrorism leaders, obtained by The Wall Street Journal, cited an "increase in recruitment, threatening communications and weapons procurement by white supremacy extremist and militia/sovereign-citizen extremist groups."
|
It has me more than a litte angry because, you see, I have a little personal experience with aryan assholes.
In 1974, an outfit in Vermont tried to get me and some other VN vets to join. I've forgotten the name, but it had something to do with Nathan Hale. In '91, while visiting my strange, little club in San Diego, I mentioned my service and that I am something of a survivalist (I really am). This got me cornered by a member of some CA sack of cracked nuts urging me to sign on and prepare for whatever commie apocalypse they saw on the horizon.
In the early '60's, George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi Party harangued some of us in Norfolk, VA -- those of us either bored enough or stupid enough to attend his flyer-advertised meeting. He loved service men, active or otherwise.
So like it or not, the probability of these clowns recruiting service personnel is quite real, and Pat and his hare-brained fellow travelers are merely blowing more smoke.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 04/17/2009 12:53:11 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:33:28 [Permalink]
|
It's interesting the Pat Robertson plays the veteran card ("Somebody who has been a veteran and served our country as a proud member of the military"), as he seems to be a variety of hypocritical chickenhawk, himself. Per Wiki:| However, former Republican Congressman Paul "Pete" McCloskey, Jr., who served with Robertson in Korea, claimed that Robertson was actually spared combat duty when his powerful father, a U.S. Senator, intervened on his behalf, claiming that instead Robertson spent most of his time in an office in Japan. According to McCloskey, his time in the service was not in combat but as the "liquor officer" responsible for keeping the officers' clubs supplied with liquor. There he also was known to drink liquors himself and to frequent prostitutes -- consequently, he even feared that he had contracted gonorrhea. |
During the Korean War, Robertson's Senator daddy got him a job in Japan as a "liquor officer"!
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 19:10:15 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
It has me more than a litte angry because, you see, I have a little personal experience with aryan assholes.
In 1974, an outfit in Vermont tried to get me and some other VN vets to join. I've forgotten the name, but it had something to do with Nathan Hale. In '91, while visiting my strange, little club in San Diego, I mentioned my service and that I am something of a survivalist (I really am). This got me cornered by a member of some CA sack of cracked nuts urging me to sign on and prepare for whatever commie apocalypse they saw on the horizon.
In the early '60's, George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi Party harangued some of us in Norfolk, VA -- those of us either bored enough or stupid enough to attend his flyer-advertised meeting. He loved service men, active or otherwise.
So like it or not, the probability of these clowns recruiting service personnel is quite real, and Pat and his hare-brained fellow travelers are merely blowing more smoke.
|
There are also some groups that are encouraging their young members to join the military to get training that it is difficult for these militant groups to provide without raising eyebrows. There were quite a few with white supremist (sp?) views on active service while I was. I've always considered the concept a bit frightening. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
|
|
|
|
ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 14:20:07 [Permalink]
|
On the subject of James Adkisson and his murderous rampage at a Unitarian church:
When someone goes on a killing spree and leaves behind a document which very explicitly explains his motives:
Know this if nothing else: This was a hate crime. I hate the damn left-wing liberals. There is a vast left-wing conspiracy in this country & these liberals are working together to attack every decent & honorable institution in the nation, trying to turn this country into a communist state. Shame on them....
"This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book. I'd like to kill everyone in the mainstream media. But I know those people were inaccessible to me. I couldn't get to the generals & high ranking officers of the Marxist movement so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people. Someone had to get the ball rolling. I volunteered. I hope others do the same. It's the only way we can rid America of this cancerous pestilence."
"I thought I'd do something good for this Country Kill Democrats til the cops kill me....Liberals are a pest like termites. Millions of them Each little bite contributes to the downfall of this great nation. The only way we can rid ourselves of this evil is to kill them in the streets. Kill them where they gather. I'd like to encourage other like minded people to do what I've done. If life aint worth living anymore don't just kill yourself. do something for your Country before you go. Go Kill Liberals. |
Source
The significance of the parts I've bolded is:
1. It turns out that he had a ready-made "enemies list" conveniently supplied by one of Faux's hatefreak pundits, but just couldn't get within range of anyone on it.
2. The talk of a "cancerous pestilence" and "termites" is exactly analogous to the images of Jews commonly used in Nazi propaganda.
Now, when someone like this descends into murder, can we infer a relationship between his choice of victims and well-paid blatherers who have spent years telling him "It's them. They did this to you. It's all their fault", even if they've managed to avoid making a prosecutable threat?
Perhaps consulting someone who possessed some personal expertise might be appropriate.
DR.THOMA: Then how is it that a few days ago a witness, namely, the Witness Ohlendorf, appeared here and admitted that through the Einsatzgruppen he had killed 90,000 people, but told the Tribunal that this did not harmonize with the National Socialist ideology?
VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI: I am of a different opinion. If for years, for decades, a doctrine is preached to the effect that the Slav race is an inferior race, that the Jews are not even human beings, then an explosion of this sort is inevitable.
|
-SS General Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, testifying before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, January 7, 1946
Source
Wingnut apologists for our domestic Julius Streicher-wannabees are cordially invited to sit on it.
|
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
The legacy of the Klan
