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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 04/02/2009 : 10:39:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Cigarettes are an optional luxury product, period.
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In your opinion.
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Exactly what compelling human or societal need does tobacco fill? And keeping the addicts from jonesing doesn't count. If tobacco disappeared tomorrow smokers will have a bad week and then go on with their lives. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/02/2009 10:39:55 |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 11:01:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
I'm totally with you. Want drug violence to stop? Legalize it.
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Stopping it would just be a side benefit. I just have a modest proposal.
How bout we put a higher tax on the drugs we want to deter but keep a lower tax on drugs that are ok?
You'll have a tax on Pot that would be decreased with amount of munchies you buy with it.
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"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 11:58:33 [Permalink]
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Well, if one must tax, then it seems reasonable to tax what's harmful and yet wildly popular. Tobacco, alcohol and sugar come to mind. Things that put stresses on the medical system.
Rather than raising or creating new taxes, perhaps removing tax exemptions might be better.
I am frankly astonished at how many "Americans" want Obama to fail. Is there no crisis deep enough where you can actually work together? The republican determination to partisanship looks rather like a ideological mutually assured destruction way of thinking - their way or everyone dies. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 12:09:05 [Permalink]
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I find it amusing that this particular tax increase is being used to call Obama a liar. I sdon't think this was what Obama had in mind when he made those statements back on the campaign trail. Was this tax added per Obama's request? Was this tax something Obama should have held out on rather than signing it and getting important things done? Hell no. In fact, I am all for higher taxes still. Until the budget is balanced!
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 12:49:51 [Permalink]
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Higher taxes on those that benefit from the system, yes. Not higher taxes on those that do not. This is a regressive tax. We don't need that now.
In fact, it doesn't matter if the budget isn't balanced now. What matters is getting the economy moving for those that need it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/02/2009 12:50:50 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 12:52:37 [Permalink]
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Exactly what compelling human or societal need does tobacco fill? And keeping the addicts from jonesing doesn't count. If tobacco disappeared tomorrow smokers will have a bad week and then go on with their lives.
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You said it was optional. That's a loaded term.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 13:00:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Originally posted by chaloobi
I'm totally with you. Want drug violence to stop? Legalize it.
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Stopping it would just be a side benefit. I just have a modest proposal.
How bout we put a higher tax on the drugs we want to deter but keep a lower tax on drugs that are ok?
You'll have a tax on Pot that would be decreased with amount of munchies you buy with it.
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Buy an 1/8 and get a bag of Cheetos free? Think of the marketing opportunities....
In all seriousness, regulated but legal recreational drugs is the answer to the illegal drug problem, IMHO. Yes there will still be issues to deal with but they'll be smaller and cheaper than the issues with the illegal drug trade. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 13:03:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Exactly what compelling human or societal need does tobacco fill? And keeping the addicts from jonesing doesn't count. If tobacco disappeared tomorrow smokers will have a bad week and then go on with their lives.
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You said it was optional. That's a loaded term.
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It is optional. If tobacco disappeared tomorrow, smokers would survive just fine. Better, actually. |
-Chaloobi
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 16:48:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Has tax increases curbed smoking in the past? So you think it is a good idea for the government to use taxes to punish people for using a legal product?
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According to this link it is expected to decrease the number of current smokers by about 1 million and prevent even more from taking up the habit.
"Punish people for using a legal product." Punish? They are punishing/harming themselves and those around them by continuing to smoke. I'd be willing to bet that by quitting they will be saving much more than just the price of cigarettes. They will probably reduce doctor visits for upper respiratory ailments. Especially if they have kids.
I don't see a down side. If you don't want to pay the tax, don't smoke. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 17:20:51 [Permalink]
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It is optional. If tobacco disappeared tomorrow, smokers would survive just fine. Better, actually.
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That may or may not be, but this is not the issue. I'm just saying optional is a loaded term, and I'm saying that now is not the time to introduce a regressive tax. It's time to tax those who benefit from the system and increase the wealth of those that don't benefit from the system. We need to get a living wage. We need universal, single-payer health care. We need better public transportation. We need to fix the infrastructure. We need to pay for higher education and vocational training. We need to begin to eliminate the dependence on the military and prisons for jobs. We need to stop attacking other countries.
We don't need this tax now. If its purpose is to raise revenue, it raises revenue in the hope that people will continue smoking in order to raise the revenue. If its sole purpose is to help people quit smoking, we need to do it in concert with solid programs to help people quit smoking, and help tobacco farmers do something else, etc., etc. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 17:33:37 [Permalink]
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To be honest, Robb is completely right: Obama and Biden did break their word on taxes. Gorgo is also right that this is a regressive tax. Like most sales taxes, this will affect the poor disproportionately. It certainly affects me. The Federal tax for each pack of cigarette has gone up from $.39 to $1.00. This is in addition to state taxes, which in the State of California is $.87 per pack of twenty ciggies.
I used to be able to save a great deal in feeding the monkey on my back by laboriously making my ciggies by hand. But the Federal tax for loose cigarette tobacco has gone up from $1.0969 per pound, to an enormous $23.6831 per pound. Even the paper tubes I use have had their tax tripled. With my deep addiction to smoking, and my marginal survival financially, life is going to be even tougher for me.
I'm against most sales taxes on principle, especially "sin taxes." I believe progressive income taxes should be the primary taxes.
Having said all that, remember the purpose for the new tobacco tax is to fund SCHIP, the State Children's Health Insurance Program. That's the new program that is intended to assure health insurance coverage for all American children. That's a worthy program that will save and improve many lives.
Secondly, it may be that the higher taxes will directly safe some lives of those us poor folks who are no longer able to feed our addictions. (Assuming suicides don't overwhelm that trend.) According to the Lung Association:| "Research tells us that a ten percent increase in the price of a pack of cigarettes can reduce youth smoking by seven percent, and adult smoking up to five percent," said Harold Wimmer, CEO of the American Lung Association of the Upper Midwest. "Nationwide, nearly 20 percent of our high school students smoke, and in some regions the percentage is even higher. If they don't stop and continue to smoke through adulthood, half will die of smoking related illnesses." |
I'm against these taxes, though I don't think the issue rises to the level of something that should lessen my overall support for Obama and Biden. I think the money to fund SCHIP should be taken from a general increase in income taxes in the top brackets.
But please, people:
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/02/2009 23:08:57 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 17:53:12 [Permalink]
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| No, there are a lot of other worse things to criticize Obama for. These people do not work for us, and this is further proof. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 18:31:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Robb
Has tax increases curbed smoking in the past? So you think it is a good idea for the government to use taxes to punish people for using a legal product?
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According to this link it is expected to decrease the number of current smokers by about 1 million and prevent even more from taking up the habit. |
Expected is the key word. No hard data was presented.
| Punish? They are punishing/harming themselves and those around them by continuing to smoke. I'd be willing to bet that by quitting they will be saving much more than just the price of cigarettes. They will probably reduce doctor visits for upper respiratory ailments. Especially if they have kids. |
Why do you think you get to choose for them?
I don't see a down side. If you don't want to pay the tax, don't smoke.
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That's the same thing as if you have nothing to hide then why not let the police search your house anytime they want. I am for taxing cigarettes but nothing should be taxed unfairly. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 19:28:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Why do you think you get to choose for them?
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Seems to me the choice is theirs to make. They need to weigh the benefits of smoking vs the benefits of not smoking. The way I see it the benefits of not smoking just increased.
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by moakley
[quote]I don't see a down side. If you don't want to pay the tax, don't smoke.
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That's the same thing as if you have nothing to hide then why not let the police search your house anytime they want. I am for taxing cigarettes but nothing should be taxed unfairly.
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This is not even a reasonable analogy. In what way does a search of my house without warrant correspond to the paying of higher taxes by someone who is unwilling to quit smoking? Now if you want to relate my paying higher property taxes on my house while its value has gone down to the higher tax on cigarettes, then you may have something. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 23:07:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Seems to me the choice is theirs to make. They need to weigh the benefits of smoking vs the benefits of not smoking. The way I see it the benefits of not smoking just increased. |
Ah, I think you, Sir, have never been addicted? Weighing the logic of the situation is one thing, but feeding the beast is a horse of another color.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Reminds me of Bush 41
