|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2009 : 05:13:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
It is optional. If tobacco disappeared tomorrow, smokers would survive just fine. Better, actually.
|
That may or may not be, but this is not the issue. I'm just saying optional is a loaded term, and I'm saying that now is not the time to introduce a regressive tax. It's time to tax those who benefit from the system and increase the wealth of those that don't benefit from the system. We need to get a living wage. We need universal, single-payer health care. We need better public transportation. We need to fix the infrastructure. We need to pay for higher education and vocational training. We need to begin to eliminate the dependence on the military and prisons for jobs. We need to stop attacking other countries.
We don't need this tax now. If its purpose is to raise revenue, it raises revenue in the hope that people will continue smoking in order to raise the revenue. If its sole purpose is to help people quit smoking, we need to do it in concert with solid programs to help people quit smoking, and help tobacco farmers do something else, etc., etc.
|
To your point, this would be a moot question if the US had a sensible health care system. And it is an irony to base funding for the SCHIP program, something most really value, on the use of tobacco, something most would like to go away. Seems to be a conflict of goals there. Reminds me of Catch-22... |
-Chaloobi
|
 |
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 05:15:10 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Robb
Why do you think you get to choose for them?
|
Seems to me the choice is theirs to make. They need to weigh the benefits of smoking vs the benefits of not smoking. The way I see it the benefits of not smoking just increased.
|
Somebody please list the benefits of smoking. |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/03/2009 05:15:59 |
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 05:34:22 [Permalink]
|
Sorry I'm late in this thread, but I can't resist:
Originally posted by WarfRat
Taxing tobacco is a deterrent for cigarette smoking???
IF you follow that logic, why don't we legalize drugs then tax crack cocaine deals to deter drug use.
|
Because policy makers are idiots. Recreational drugs should be legal and taxed heavily. IMHO decade long efforts to criminalize drug use have shown that, paradoxically, the only effect these seem to have is to make drugs easier to obtain, cheaper and more interesting to young people. But I'll be the first to admit that this is my opinion only, not based on any good, hard evidence but only on my personal experience comparing the trouble I had to go to to obtain drugs in the Netherlands, the US and France (not that I ever bought the stuff, just asked people where to get it and how much it cost).
I did a quick pubmed scan (ie, started with a search on 'deterring' AND 'smoking' AND 'tax', read the abstracts and clicked through abstracts of "related articles" given in the side bar) and it seems that there is indeed evidence that increases in tabacco taxation are in part responsible for decreases in smoking. It is an extra stimulant for people to reflect on their smoking behavior. Studies also indicate that affordability is a risk factor for starting smoking. In other words, youth are more likely to start smoking if cigarettes are more expensive. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 05:41:03 [Permalink]
|
Somebody please list the benefits of smoking.
|
Perceived benefits might be a better term. People do perceive benefits, or they would not do it. Every puff is a choice, but that doesn't mean that those choices are easy. Simple, but not easy.
One of the many reasons I quit years ago was price. One of the others was they were limiting smoking where I worked. I realized it was socially unacceptable.
One of the perceived benefits when I was younger was that I gained weight when I quit, and lost weight when I started again. Now that I'm in my fifties and chubby, I often think about starting again for that reason. Then I see a 400 pound guy getting out of his van with a cigarette.
I think that there is the idea, real or not, that in the short term, smoking helps one to think better. Again, real or not, that is a perceived benefit. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 05:47:33 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Somebody please list the benefits of smoking.
|
Perceived benefits might be a better term. People do perceive benefits, or they would not do it. |
This is not true. I know quite a few people who cannot name perceived benefits when pressed, other than that they don't have to deal with the initial withdrawal symptoms.
| Every puff is a choice, but that doesn't mean that those choices are easy. Simple, but not easy. |
Just because choices aren't easy, doesn't mean it's still a choice and still a luxury good.
One of the many reasons I quit years ago was price. One of the others was they were limiting smoking where I worked. I realized it was socially unacceptable.
One of the perceived benefits when I was younger was that I gained weight when I quit, and lost weight when I started again. Now that I'm in my fifties and chubby, I often think about starting again for that reason. Then I see a 400 pound guy getting out of his van with a cigarette.
I think that there is the idea, real or not, that in the short term, smoking helps one to think better. Again, real or not, that is a perceived benefit.
|
I don't see why we should look at perceived benefits when considering policies. I'm sure many people perceive benefits from using homeopathic medicine. Regardless of their perception, it's still quackery. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 06:51:58 [Permalink]
|
This is not true. I know quite a few people who cannot name perceived benefits when pressed, other than that they don't have to deal with the initial withdrawal symptoms.
|
Just because they cannot name them, does not mean that they don't think they are benefiting in some way. If they didn't think there was more benefit in smoking than there was in quitting, then they wouldn't do it.
| Just because choices aren't easy, doesn't mean it's still a choice and still a luxury good. |
That may or may not be true, but it is irrelevant to whether or not a regressive tax is a good idea now.
I don't see why we should look at perceived benefits when considering policies. I'm sure many people perceive benefits from using homeopathic medicine. Regardless of their perception, it's still quackery.
|
We should look at perceived benefits because they are what people perceive, and we're dealing with people. I'm not saying that taxation should never be part of an overall program. I'm just saying that this is a regressive tax, and that's the last thing we need now. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 08:10:56 [Permalink]
|
Just because they cannot name them, does not mean that they don't think they are benefiting in some way. If they didn't think there was more benefit in smoking than there was in quitting, then they wouldn't do it.
|
Another way to put this is I wonder if lack of self awareness isn't the problem. If they fully understood what they were doing, and why, and why their beliefs about what they were doing were not true, and what it takes to change those beliefs, they would change. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 10:09:35 [Permalink]
|
An interesting experiment would be to make ALL recreational drugs readily available, totally free, and completely legal.
Makes for an interesting thought experiment if nothing else......what do you think would happen?
1)I think early on it would result in a LOT of deaths.
2)I think it would basically shut down all of the major groups profiting from illegal drugs (until they latch on to something else I guess).
3)It would result in parents actually having to teach their children about the potential dangers....and children actually needing to listen. Those that don't end up a statistic under #1.
4)Obviously some major changes would have to take place in health care. What could you do? You would probably have to pass laws saying NO treatment for drug abusers. Or treatment for drug abuse must be pre-paid 100% by the abuser?
5)I think laws for crimes committed by someone on drugs would have to become much stricter.
Hmmm? Would this result in a population that could use recreational drugs responsibly with becoming addicted. I think it eventually would; Evolution. People would learn just which drugs can be used without major repercussions. People who have highly addictive personalities would be weeded out of the population....probably....eventually. The really dangerous drugs would lose any allure they had and fall by the wayside.
Tobacco may actually be the trickiest of them all. It's apparently quite addictive to many. It does not present any major side effects until well after addiction has set in, if ever. Many people smoke their whole lives and still live well into there 80's. I had a great grandfather who started smoking in his teens. Later he smoked a pipe every day pretty much the whole time he was awake, he died at 96. Then again my grandfather ate two eggs with bacon virtually every morning and his cholesterol was 140. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 10:10:44 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Robb
Why do you think you get to choose for them?
|
Seems to me the choice is theirs to make. They need to weigh the benefits of smoking vs the benefits of not smoking. The way I see it the benefits of not smoking just increased.
|
Somebody please list the benefits of smoking.
|
That was my intent. The benefits of smoking will be a short one. The choice based on this comparison of these two list will be clear. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 10:16:27 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by moakley
Seems to me the choice is theirs to make. They need to weigh the benefits of smoking vs the benefits of not smoking. The way I see it the benefits of not smoking just increased. |
Ah, I think you, Sir, have never been addicted? Weighing the logic of the situation is one thing, but feeding the beast is a horse of another color.
|
Yes you are right, I have never smoked. But I know several people, including a few family members, who have successfully quit. Quitting is not impossible. Since quitting is not impossible I view it as a choice. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 10:33:46 [Permalink]
|
Since quitting is not impossible I view it as a choice.
|
Sure, it's a choice. Every puff is a choice. That doesn't make it easy to change that choice, and that doesn't mean regressive taxes are ever a good idea. If they ever are, they certainly are not now. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 10:36:23 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by astropin
An interesting experiment would be to make ALL recreational drugs readily available, totally free, and completely legal.
Makes for an interesting thought experiment if nothing else......what do you think would happen?
1)I think early on it would result in a LOT of deaths.
2)I think it would basically shut down all of the major groups profiting from illegal drugs (until they latch on to something else I guess).
3)It would result in parents actually having to teach their children about the potential dangers....and children actually needing to listen. Those that don't end up a statistic under #1.
4)Obviously some major changes would have to take place in health care. What could you do? You would probably have to pass laws saying NO treatment for drug abusers. Or treatment for drug abuse must be pre-paid 100% by the abuser?
5)I think laws for crimes committed by someone on drugs would have to become much stricter.
Hmmm? Would this result in a population that could use recreational drugs responsibly with becoming addicted. I think it eventually would; Evolution. People would learn just which drugs can be used without major repercussions. People who have highly addictive personalities would be weeded out of the population....probably....eventually. The really dangerous drugs would lose any allure they had and fall by the wayside.
Tobacco may actually be the trickiest of them all. It's apparently quite addictive to many. It does not present any major side effects until well after addiction has set in, if ever. Many people smoke their whole lives and still live well into there 80's. I had a great grandfather who started smoking in his teens. Later he smoked a pipe every day pretty much the whole time he was awake, he died at 96. Then again my grandfather ate two eggs with bacon virtually every morning and his cholesterol was 140.
|
You forgot to add 6) drop in budget costs and violent deaths due to an irresponsible and ineffective "war on drugs". |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 13:17:12 [Permalink]
|
Someone once said you can't rationally argue against something with a person that wasn't rationally persuaded in the first place (or words to that effect).
In my opinion addiction (chemical, emotional) will trump logic and reason more times than not.
For the record, I smoke one or two ciggies a week. Used to smoke a lot more many moons ago. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 18:33:43 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by pleco
Someone once said you can't rationally argue against something with a person that wasn't rationally persuaded in the first place (or words to that effect).
In my opinion addiction (chemical, emotional) will trump logic and reason more times than not.
For the record, I smoke one or two ciggies a week. Used to smoke a lot more many moons ago.
|
Should we subsidize a person's choice not to use logic and reason? That sets a difficult precedent. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2009 : 22:28:20 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by chaloobi
Somebody please list the benefits of smoking. |
1) All the cool kids are doing it.
2) Self-medication for low alertness, high anxiety and possibly some inflammatory diseases.
3) Maintaining employment levels within the tobacco industry during these hard economic times.
4) Donating about 3.5 cents per cigarette to SCHIP. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Reminds me of Bush 41
