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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/04/2009 : 22:31:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Should we subsidize a person's choice not to use logic and reason? That sets a difficult precedent. |
Subsidize? No. Tax? Sure. Why not? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 00:26:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Should we subsidize a person's choice not to use logic and reason? That sets a difficult precedent. |
Subsidize? No. Tax? Sure. Why not?
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That was directed the argument to choose not to tax (lose tax revenues) due to addiction trumping reason and logic. Not sure that's a valid argument.
If one accepts the idea of tax laws being created for the purpose of encouraging and discouraging behaviors, then I see little problem with it. I am not sure I fully support this type of taxation (though the U.S. and other countries have designed their tax systems entirely with this principle in mind). Carried to an extreme, it could definitely be bad (maybe tax books on communism 400% for "putting socially disruptive ideas into the minds of citizens"). I doubt something this dramatic would happen, but I could see Congress trying to add extra taxes on other behaviors deemed harmful to society (I do not generally like governments "deeming" things harmful), like taxing unhealthy foods or what have you. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 02:12:38 [Permalink]
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1)I think early on it would result in a LOT of deaths.
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I couldn't predict death rates, but if the government would distribute drugs the way they do alcohol, they would be able to do some kind of quality control, and you would know exactly what you're getting, and would not be as apt to O.D. or get poisoned by something that was added. Profits could be used to pay for research and treatment. This would reduce the black market and the violence and make it easier for people to get treatment.
Also, I haven't heard of anyone dying from marijuana, although I could have missed it.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 06:05:35 [Permalink]
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The government doesn't distribute alcohol. The McCain family does.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 06:28:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The government doesn't distribute alcohol. The McCain family does.
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Same thing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 05:39:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Since quitting is not impossible I view it as a choice.
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Sure, it's a choice. Every puff is a choice. That doesn't make it easy to change that choice, and that doesn't mean regressive taxes are ever a good idea. If they ever are, they certainly are not now.
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As @tomic pointed out on page 1
To which I would like to add to your argument that this is a regressive tax that "This is also a voluntary tax." Now there is agreement here that quitting is not impossible, difficult, but not impossible.
As chaloobi pointed out on page 1
1 pk / day * 5.00/pk * 365 days/yr = $1,825
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Minus the tax increase this will still come to $1,573.15 at $4.31/pk. Fifteen hundred dollars buys a lot of food and diapers or gas and utilities. If you are poor I do not know how you can justify a habit for which there are no known benefits. Taking money away from necessities. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 05:50:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by chaloobi
Somebody please list the benefits of smoking. |
1) All the cool kids are doing it.
2) Self-medication for low alertness, high anxiety and possibly some inflammatory diseases.
3) Maintaining employment levels within the tobacco industry during these hard economic times.
4) Donating about 3.5 cents per cigarette to SCHIP.
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I was referring to personal benefits - why would you choose to get hooked sort of thing. And 1) is the only personal benefit so far as I can tell and that wears off after highschool.
I know a LOT of X-smokers and only a couple current smokers. Of all of them only 1 started smoking later than highschool and he's probably the smartest guy I've ever met so don't ask me why. Interstingly after an engineering degree at UM and several years working in automotive engineering, he quit and got an advanced divinity degree from Yale after which he acknowledged to me that god probably did not exist. But then went on to argue for the social necessity of religion. He's working in engineering today....
I believe that most highly educated clergy are in fact atheists, being too intelligent and too educated not to see the obvious, but either maintain the pretense of Faith for their own benefit, the benefit of the institution and/or what they believe is the benefit of society. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 05:53:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
[quote]
Also, I haven't heard of anyone dying from marijuana, although I could have missed it.
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When I was in highschool I recall an urban legend that the only kid who ever died from smoking pot got the munchies so bad that he ate a bunch of raw rice then drank a bunch of water causing the rice to expand and burst his stomach.  I think that's probably BS... |
-Chaloobi
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 06:02:22 [Permalink]
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To which I would like to add to your argument that this is a regressive tax that "This is also a voluntary tax." Now there is agreement here that quitting is not impossible, difficult, but not impossible.
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To which you added "difficult, but not impossible." Without proper programs to go along with this punishment for having a habit that's difficult to break, this is a punitive, regressive tax that we do not need now. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/06/2009 06:02:54 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 06:14:27 [Permalink]
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Yes you are right, I have never smoked. But I know several people, including a few family members, who have successfully quit. Quitting is not impossible. Since quitting is not impossible I view it as a choice.
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Have you never been mentally stuck anywhere in your life, or has every area of your life made sense all the time since you were born? If so, I think we need to tax that, because that's a real luxury that you got from this system that I didn't get. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 06:30:20 [Permalink]
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I think that's probably BS...
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That's a good one. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2009 : 13:15:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
I am all for higher taxes still. Until the budget is balanced!
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Ever heard of a decrease in spending? I understand that this is a novel concept but it can work. But who cares this is just government money anyway. It's not like I am ever going to have to pay it back.  |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 13:20:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Well, I'm working on stopping. And, beyond health issues, the money I would save by not smoking is considerable and |
But you told me you had quit when I suggested quiting might help your chronic cold symptoms that you were complaining about. Now I find out your just working on quiting. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 13:37:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Kil
Well, I'm working on stopping. And, beyond health issues, the money I would save by not smoking is considerable and |
But you told me you had quit when I suggested quiting might help your chronic cold symptoms that you were complaining about. Now I find out your just working on quiting.
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You have heard that quitting smoking is difficult, right? At the moment, I am chewing gum. But falling off the wagon is not only not unheard of, it's usual.
Sorry if I let you down.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 16:23:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Yes you are right, I have never smoked. But I know several people, including a few family members, who have successfully quit. Quitting is not impossible. Since quitting is not impossible I view it as a choice.
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Have you never been mentally stuck anywhere in your life, or has every area of your life made sense all the time since you were born? If so, I think we need to tax that, because that's a real luxury that you got from this system that I didn't get.
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How would you determine an appropriate tax on assuming credit for the good things in ones life and responsibility for those things that don't make sense? Recognizing the bad and figuring out how to correct the bad is sometimes difficult, but it is not impossible. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Reminds me of Bush 41
