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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2009 : 03:46:08
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Who but he most delusional of Catholics care about the Shroud of Turin? Well, I for one, do and as skeptics, so should you. It represents the unfettered greed, perfidy and cruelty of the Vatican toward the Knights Templar in particular and the it's followers of the time in general, which continues today albeit in more subtle forms.
The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.
The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.
Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century. Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Dr Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians. |
The Shroud is being hauled out, with due ceremony, next year. It will be used as subtle and solemn advertising to reinforce the faith of the already faithful and recruit new adherents to the Church. If I could, I'd go just to view this fascinating piece of sanguine history; this soiled rag of deceit.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 04/08/2009 04:51:13
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 07:07:46 [Permalink]
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But the shroud had been dated from the 13th to 14th centuries (1260–1390 to be exact).
In fact, the first Bishop recorded to own it was very reluctant to display it, as he was convinced it was a fraud, and his successor even wrote this letter (in 1389, which would be consistent with the dates):
| Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed. |
I thought that the Catholic Church had all but officially accepted the fact that the shroud was a fraud. Did they change their mind? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 04/08/2009 07:08:03 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 07:54:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I thought that the Catholic Church had all but officially accepted the fact that the shroud was a fraud. Did they change their mind?
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No. They didn't change their mind. They never agreed that it was a fraud, and they take no official position.
Smart of them. Catholics love religious doodads. And, as filthy noted, it's good for business. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:05:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But the shroud had been dated from the 13th to 14th centuries (1260–1390 to be exact).
In fact, the first Bishop recorded to own it was very reluctant to display it, as he was convinced it was a fraud, and his successor even wrote this letter (in 1389, which would be consistent with the dates):
| Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed. |
I thought that the Catholic Church had all but officially accepted the fact that the shroud was a fraud. Did they change their mind?
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It is the Lie of Silence: say nothing; just do a prayful ceremony, display the artifact, and the believers will reaffirm each other. They will speak to the uncommitted, leaving the Church blameless. It works pretty well in politics, too.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:38:51 [Permalink]
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Well, the Church did agree on providing the samples for the analysis in the first place and I was under the impression that theywere not particularly protective of this particular myth.
So, it'd seem like a regression to put it in such a centre stage position. Or maybe they just kept on cashing it in. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:30:53 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately, the scrap of material tested came from a damaged and repaired portion of the Shroud, and therefore the results aren't reliable. Other tests proving the fake are pretty much ignored.
"The Story Behind The Shroud of Turin And the Carbon Dating Debacle
Shroud of Turin Education Project, Inc.
The Shroud of Turin is a mysterious 14-foot long linen cloth that resides in Turin, Italy and bears the faint image of a crucified man. It has inspired millions over the centuries who believed it to be the authentic burial shroud of Jesus. Those hopes were heightened in 1978 when a team of 24 American scientists analyzed the cloth up close for five days and nights. Dozens of sophisticated tests using equipment on loan from numerous space age labs across the country indicated that the image was not the work of an artist. There are no artistic substances to be found and the bloodstains contain human hemoglobin from actual wounds.
The 80's were buzzing with Shroud related news as more and more data flowed in supporting the cloth's possible authenticity. If proven to be real, the implication would be enormous. Is it possible that a document of the Passion still exists? Would this not be comparable to making the greatest archaeological discovery in history? One scientist speculated and said maybe it was, “a love letter left behind for the analytical mind.”
But hopes were soon dashed in 1988 when the cloth was carbon dated by three laboratories in Zurich, Oxford and Arizona. They came back with a date range of 1260 to 1390 declaring the cloth only 600-700 years old. So much for the Shroud being authentic. The New York Times announced that the Shroud was a fake, end of story.
But the story has a plot that few know about and is starting to make the news. But lets go back to 1988 first. The three dating labs, according to a scientific protocol agreed upon in 1985, were supposed to cut several samples of the Shroud from different locations. Unfortunately, that is not what happened. Instead, the scientific adviser to the Arch Diocese of Turin, Luigi Gonnella, decided to violate the protocol and allowed only one sample to be cut from an outside corner where it had been handled hundreds of times over the centuries as it was held up for public viewing."
Interesting, huh? Hit the link and read on; it gets better. Indeed, what we have here might be considered a sort of sacred bumper sticker that is only displayed enough to help keep the faith going. As I see it, the biggest question, and one that is carefully ignored by all concerned, is: why was it made in the first place and by whom. Some pope or other, or perhaps the Templars themselves, concocting the story along the way? We'll never know as an accurate history is impossible and the Church would lie about it, anyway.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 11:41:17 [Permalink]
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Relics were a hot commodities in the middle-age, in addition to the prestige they brought to any parish, they were the focus of pilgrimages and pardons which were themselves a boon to the local economy.
Therefore, they were quite an intense commerce of pious artefact going on and more than a little bit of forgery. The religious authority were well aware of it and there were so attempt at curbing it down and evaluate the authenticity of some artefacts. But, it was difficult as many parish were very reluctant to give away such an asset. Furthermore, many artefacts were associated with 'miracles'. Between the tendency of people for placebo and pious exaggeration, few of these miracles are that impressive nowadays, but at the time, it was seen as a good proof of the artefact authenticity and power...
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 13:41:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Relics were a hot commodities in the middle-age, in addition to the prestige they brought to any parish, they were the focus of pilgrimages and pardons which were themselves a boon to the local economy.
Therefore, they were quite an intense commerce of pious artefact going on and more than a little bit of forgery. The religious authority were well aware of it and there were so attempt at curbing it down and evaluate the authenticity of some artefacts. But, it was difficult as many parish were very reluctant to give away such an asset. Furthermore, many artefacts were associated with 'miracles'. Between the tendency of people for placebo and pious exaggeration, few of these miracles are that impressive nowadays, but at the time, it was seen as a good proof of the artefact authenticity and power...
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And I fear that little has changed. Odd relics such as the blood of some saint or other -- it liquifies at a certain time of year, drawing throngs to observe it -- are, if not common, still venerated. And many Catholic Churches still have bits & pieces of alleged saints, and even splinters of the True Cross  entombed in their alters.
"Pieces of the True Cross were one of the most highly sought after such relics; many churches claimed to possess a piece of it, so many that John Calvin famously remarked that there were enough pieces of the True Cross to build a ship from[4], although a study in 1870[5] found that put together the claimed relics weighed less than 1.7 kg (0.04m³)."
I have read that there is a sacred foreskin flapping around somewhere, but have become too dog-lazy to look for it. You can thank 'mooner and his magic dome hunt for that. 
Pretty crazy, but when has the majority our species been otherwise?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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The most famous, pious fraud
