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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2009 : 23:32:40 [Permalink]
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| I don't even understand what the trap was supposed to be. Even if someone did follow along with the host's scripted argument, does it not just mean following the Ten Commandments/etc would be right in the hypothetical world in which that particular God exists as described in the Bible? Seems like this just leads to Pascal's Wager which is not a good argument for anything. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2009 : 23:33:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Isn't Abbie Smith young enough to be your daughter? |
Oh, yeah. In fact, my daughter's close to old enough to be Abbie's mother. And that's just the start of the impractical considerations. Don't worry, I may salivate, but I do not pursue.Apart from that, yeah, no contest, she actually was the one I was thinking about. But now, as so not to objectify females too much, we'd need the female and gay side of the fora to post on the respective appeal of the male members of the skeptic community.
He, it's only fair...
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Agreed.  |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2009 : 23:55:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I don't even understand what the trap was supposed to be. Even if someone did follow along with the host's scripted argument, does it not just mean following the Ten Commandments/etc would be right in the hypothetical world in which that particular God exists as described in the Bible? Seems like this just leads to Pascal's Wager which is not a good argument for anything.
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The "trap" is hardly logical. But it seems often to work. Like this: A lengthy chain of assumptions is swiftly created, with the respondent being a good sport and agreeing to each little step into fantasyland. The idea is that the respondent will get lost along the way, and begin to confuse at least part of his/her hypothetical agreement for argument sake with actual agreement. Then the con man reels in his fish with a theistic conclusion.
Many people are unaccustomed to rhetoric and debate, and can't keep track of the confusing series of logical hoops they've jumped through. They walk away shaking their heads, thinking the scammer has somehow (they may rapidly forget the details) made a valid point. If it doesn't work, the scammer simply pretends it did, and starts on the next mark.
Hitchens is way smarter than that, as Freil should have known.
The chain of argument is much more a tricky psychological attack than a true argument. Inspected closely, every link is merely a temporary agreement for argument's sake. The whole chain is nothing but flimflam, designed to make the respondent forget the details of the links.
Hitchens ruined everything by slowing the frenetic pace by giving unwelcome answers, even as he accepted the hypotheticals as a basis for the game. In effect, Hitchens seized the whole scam and turned it into a framework for his own attacks against the morality of the hypothesized God.
The other way to disrupt such that flimflam would have been to refuse to play the game at all, disputing each hypothesis as being unrealistic. Before seeing Hitchens' way, that's probably how I would have tried to handle it, but Hitchens' idea prove much better.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/13/2009 00:07:00 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 04:55:26 [Permalink]
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| Like a child's game...call it 'Welcome to my fantasy'. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 09:16:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
[quote]Originally posted by Machi4velli
I don't even understand what the trap was supposed to be. Even if someone did follow along with the host's scripted argument, does it not just mean following the Ten Commandments/etc would be right in the hypothetical world in which that particular God exists as described in the Bible? |
Despite him being a dirty old man (I want to grow up just like him too) Mooner's explanation is right on the mark.
In this precise case, the reasoning is:
-Are you perfect / Do you obey the 10 commandments, especially in more demanding interpretation (where even a passing lustful thought for the neighbour's wife is just as bad as cheating on your wife)?
-So, if there was to be a God, he would find you sinful, wouldn't he?
-Therefore, he would send you to hell, wouldn't he?
-Do you want to go to hell?
-If somebody offered you a way out , especially at his own great personal cost, wouldn't you gratefully take it?
-Praise Jeebus!
Obviously, there are plenty of problem with every step in this chain of 'reasoning' and Hitchens hit on most of them. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 10:24:36 [Permalink]
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What amazes me is that Freil thought that he could outsmart a guy like Hitchens using a lame trick. Hitchens debates theological intellectuals of the faithful kind and lays them to waste. The arrogance of guys like Comfort and Freil and their stupid pet tricks is astonishing. They are just too stupid to know how stupid they really are, is all I can figure out.
Hitchens really did play Freil's game. It just never occurred to Freil that if God provided all of the things he mentioned, that anyone would not see that as "loving", but as a form of tyranny, by his demanding love for him. Freil couldn't wrap his head around the idea that what he sees as good is really a master/slave relationship, as Hitchens ably points out, that strips mankind of any real dignity or purpose, only to be Gods own plaything to do with as he pleases. Within the framework of the question, Hitchens askes; Why should he or anyone else be happy with that kind of arraignment, even if were true?
Freil thought Hitchens had left the game because Freil is completely certain that there is only one answer to his question, even if posed as a hypothetical. He probably still doesn't understand Hitchens answer because it exists outside of Freil's ability to comprehend it. Hitchens, for his part, was simply flickin away flies. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 19:23:11 [Permalink]
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Does that even work on people less intelligent than Hitchens? I fail to see how anyone would forget that the whole thing is predicated on the hypothetical "What if Friel's God exists?" Unless maybe he intends to not allow the guest to speak?
Would the guy at least try to turn it around at the end and say "you cannot disprove the existence of my God, so my belief is just as valid as yours"? Or does it really go no where? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 19:59:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Does that even work on people less intelligent than Hitchens? |
When I was a kid, this was funny:Joker: Stick out your tongue and hold onto the tip of it.
Victim: Mmmph. Uh-huh?
J: Now say, "Molasses on the table."
V: Ma ass ith on de tabwe.
J: [Pretending to be shocked] Uh-oh! Did you just say that your ass is on the table?! Friel's trick is the religious version.
It depends upon the victim agreeing with everything that Friel suggests, and then for the punchline, Friel can (with smug superiority) claim that the victim has just agreed that Jesus is Lord and Saviour.
The victim merely needs to agree to be victimized. Lots of people are ready to "help out," especially when the scenario is allegedly a hypothetical "what if" game.
...
I once walked around a party with two cups of beer, feeling mischevious and looking for a victim. I spotted one, and walked up to him and primed him for his victimhood by asking, "hey, can you do me a favor for a minute?"
"Sure," he replied.
"Put your hands out flat, palms down and fingers together." He did so, and I immediately set one cup of beer on top of each, right across his proximal phalanges.
"Thanks," I said, and I started to walk away. It didn't take more than ten seconds or so before he realized he'd been had, and my get-away wasn't quick enough. He was really pissed that I'd abused his trust like that. Probably prompted him for a week to ask "what?" with a paranoid tone every time someone asked him for a favor. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 20:30:36 [Permalink]
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No wonder people don't invite you to parties any more, Dave.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 20:36:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Does that even work on people less intelligent than Hitchens? I fail to see how anyone would forget that the whole thing is predicated on the hypothetical "What if Friel's God exists?" Unless maybe he intends to not allow the guest to speak?
Would the guy at least try to turn it around at the end and say "you cannot disprove the existence of my God, so my belief is just as valid as yours"? Or does it really go no where?
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Maybe one of the functions of this trick is simply to quickly separate the pliant, poorly-thinking sheep from the skeptical goats? Like how stage hypnotists use simple tricks to select the 1/5 of potentially good hypnotic subjects from other volunteers who are naturally resistant.
Again, Freil was an idiot to think Hitchens a sheep.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/13/2009 20:37:54 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 20:49:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
No wonder people don't invite you to parties any more, Dave. |
Geez, that was twenty years ago, are people never going to forget?! Hell, I don't remember the guy's name anymore, how could he remember mine? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 22:10:51 [Permalink]
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Guess who else now has that video posted.
You can imagine how his opinion will differ. He'll likely focus on the very end of the video and say that Hitchens just wants to sin because he doesn't want to be "accountable" to a god that Hitchens, deep down, knows exists, or something like that.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 22:18:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
No wonder people don't invite you to parties any more, Dave. |
Geez, that was twenty years ago, are people never going to forget?! Hell, I don't remember the guy's name anymore, how could he remember mine?
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Hah! It was me. I'd forgotten who did that, until now.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/13/2009 22:19:36 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 23:25:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hah! It was me. I'd forgotten who did that, until now. |
Wow, the years have been unkind to you. You're no more than 40, forcryingoutloud. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2009 : 01:18:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hah! It was me. I'd forgotten who did that, until now. |
Wow, the years have been unkind to you. You're no more than 40, forcryingoutloud.
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The years of resentment over that sadistic stunt of yours have left me wrinkled, hairless, and bitter. Poor, too. You owe me big time, damn you.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/14/2009 01:19:13 |
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Hitchens SLAPS Todd Friel, evangelical idiot!
