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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:27:00
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It's yet another transitional fossil, everyone! Oooh and aaah over it, and laugh when the creationists scramble to pave it over with excuses.
What we have is a 39 million year old mammal from the Canadian arctic that would have looked rather like a seal in life…with a prominent exception. No flippers, instead having very large feet that were probably webbed. This is a walking seal.
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Remarkable, is it not, that those who labor in the sciences make the greatest discoveries whilst those who do nothing to advance knowledge consider themselves in a position to critisize.
Guess I'll have to start monitoring Ham's Hootenanny again. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 15:11:55 [Permalink]
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It's still just an otter!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 15:39:38 [Permalink]
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| Wow. This animal sealed it's fate!!! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2009 : 08:56:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Wow. This animal sealed it's fate!!!
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*Twitch* 
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 17:48:44 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately, once creationists lose the battle of transition fossils (in their own minds), they are just going to argue God created the universe in a state exactly as if it did exist for 14 billion years, including placing fossils at particular sediment depths, decayed nuclei, and anything else that can be dated within the framework of the natural laws He also created, therefore none of it will have invalidated a literal interpretation in the Bible, or YEC.
Arguments are so much easier when you have an infinitely powerful being on your side because you can always make up a new one when you lose. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 18:47:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Unfortunately, once creationists lose the battle of transition fossils (in their own minds), they are just going to argue God created the universe in a state exactly as if it did exist for 14 billion years, including placing fossils at particular sediment depths, decayed nuclei, and anything else that can be dated within the framework of the natural laws He also created, therefore none of it will have invalidated a literal interpretation in the Bible, or YEC.
Arguments are so much easier when you have an infinitely powerful being on your side because you can always make up a new one when you lose.
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They already make that argument about the age of the universe. And to some extent, the fossil evidence for evolution. God gave the earth and the universe the appearance of age. They don't really say why God would do that.
Link |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 20:33:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
They already make that argument about the age of the universe. And to some extent, the fossil evidence for evolution. God gave the earth and the universe the appearance of age. They don't really say why God would do that.
Link
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Maybe He wants to inflate the value of His Creation, by making it look like an antique? If so, we may be auctioned off at any time.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2009 : 10:29:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Kil
They already make that argument about the age of the universe. And to some extent, the fossil evidence for evolution. God gave the earth and the universe the appearance of age. They don't really say why God would do that.
Link
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Maybe He wants to inflate the value of His Creation, by making it look like an antique? If so, we may be auctioned off at any time.
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Ha! God is trying to cheat his way into a major score on the cosmic Antique Roadshow!!!
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Appraiser: "So, God, do you have any idea what the universe is worth at auction?"
God: "I dunno. I found it in the attic. I created that attic so long ago that I forgot what I put there. I hate cobwebs so I don't go up there much."
Appraiser: "Well, here's the thing. Based on my research, it's a very clever fake. It looks ancient, but the book on it is that it's only 6000 years old. And might I add that you were the inspiration for the definitive book on the subject?"
God: "Well, ummmm…"
Appraiser:" That's not to say it has no value. It's definitely a collectible. Fakes of this quality can still fetch a lot at auction. I've only seen one or two better fakes in all my years of doing this."
God, to himself: "I don't like where this is going." Smiles.
Appraiser: "It is an interesting piece. I don't think even PT Barnum had anything better. And I'm including the mermaid that he had on display. A wonderful fake if ever there was one. Thanks for bringing the universe it in!"
God: Fuck you. (Censored in final edit.)
Edited.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2009 : 03:33:59 [Permalink]
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As expected, the lies flies. “Evolution at [w]ork,” declares National Geographic News. “[T]he evolutionary evidence we have been lacking for so long,” reports BBC News. So just what is this new fossil?
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Sometimes I wonder if AiG has a set of forms to chose from for this sort of thing, They just pull one up, fill in the blanks with names, jigger the phrasing a little, then burst it forth with suitable fanfare and a blazing load of the apologetics crap that is so adored by the YEC.
But it's a laff, innit?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 06:57:32 [Permalink]
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Heh. I'd nailed it. (Or do they read here for hints before writing their denialist apologetics?) From AiG:| Could Pujilla actually be part of the otter kind? Sea otters are in many ways similar to pinnipeds, yet they have legs with—you guessed it—webbed feet.* Even the BBC News article says Pujilla “look[s] like a cross between a seal and an otter,” while the National Geographic News article describes its “resemblance to a modern otter.” Also, the artist's impression prompted more than one reader to suggest the same thing to us. Meanwhile, evolutionary paleontologists already have another seal ancestor alleged to be from the same time period as Pujilla—but it has flippers, like pinnipeds we see today. |
The slippery use by the Creomorons of "kinds" (or "baramin"), is designed to mean whatever they want it to. Sometimes, it seems to mean species, sometimes genus. But "kind" is deliberately elastic to the point of being scientifically useless, nothing more than a cheap trick to deny common descent and evolution through confusing the ignorant.
Here, "kind" seems to mean what real scientists call the "Order Carnivora," fercryingoutloud.
In this case, "otter kind" apparently includes both otters and seals. Saying that's a stretch is an understatement. These are entirely separate types of Order Carnivora. Otters are Family Mustelidae, Subfamily Lutrinae, while seals and sea lions are classified in Sub-order Caniformia, super-family Pinnipedia.
Carl Linnaeus worked out the basic of modern classification of living things way back in the 1700's. AiG is only a few millennia behind Linnaean taxonomy.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/26/2009 07:03:54 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 19:49:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Unfortunately, once creationists lose the battle of transition fossils (in their own minds), they are just going to argue God created the universe in a state exactly as if it did exist for 14 billion years, including placing fossils at particular sediment depths, decayed nuclei, and anything else that can be dated within the framework of the natural laws He also created, therefore none of it will have invalidated a literal interpretation in the Bible, or YEC.
Arguments are so much easier when you have an infinitely powerful being on your side because you can always make up a new one when you lose.
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They already make that argument about the age of the universe. And to some extent, the fossil evidence for evolution. God gave the earth and the universe the appearance of age. They don't really say why God would do that.
Link
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I don't think that matters. They can always say God does not have to obey the laws of nature, that God lives outside the confines of the universe. They could say God created the natural laws for the universe, which does not encompass the (place / time / dimension / whatever) in which God exists. This would mean God could place all photons in their positions 6,000 years ago that would give the impression of the existence of objects in locations further than 6,000 light years away. We have no ability to verify the existence of those objects other than the light we receive, which "was placed by God."
That link suggests the "appearance of age" argument is scientifically bankrupt, and I agree, but falsifiability has never been a high priority for many of these people. The appearance of age argument is consistent with a finite speed of light as far as I know, though the argument faces the same allegation (more justifiably...) that YECs level against evolution, that it does not have scientific evidence.
As for God's motives, they tend to argue humans cannot and need not comprehend God's motives. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/26/2009 19:51:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 20:54:08 [Permalink]
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The question, Machi4velli, becomes one of why the creationists work so hard to provide scientific evidence in favor of God when, after their arguments have been shot down, they handwave it all away with "God doesn't have to obey the laws of nature?"
By the way, the "Appearance of Age" argument is sneered at by many creationists, because it turns God into a liar. On the other hand, "tired light" or changes to halflives or other such ad hoc hypotheses mean that scientists just haven't figured all of the natural laws (which God wrought) out, and so God's not a liar. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 09:52:52 [Permalink]
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I think, part of the problem with the Omphalos is that it is obviously a purely religious argument (and, as such, one that I have little problem with).
For this reason, integrating into Science classes would clearly be a violation of the first amendment.
They know that they can't win that battle and instead, lie about the Science to fight another one.
The excuse about God being a liar is just some lame apologetics to justify their position... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 12:56:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The question, Machi4velli, becomes one of why the creationists work so hard to provide scientific evidence in favor of God when, after their arguments have been shot down, they handwave it all away with "God doesn't have to obey the laws of nature?" |
I imagine they would say they tried to explain it in terms people without their unjustifiable biases "knowledge of the truth" can understand (via science). They then see it is either not possible or they don't know how to explain it in those terms, and, therefore, must fall back to non-scientific (and unfalsifiable) arguments. Since the arguments cannot be falsified, the arguments could possibly be true, and that if they were true, science could not prove or disprove them anyway.
| By the way, the "Appearance of Age" argument is sneered at by many creationists, because it turns God into a liar. On the other hand, "tired light" or changes to halflives or other such ad hoc hypotheses mean that scientists just haven't figured all of the natural laws (which God wrought) out, and so God's not a liar. |
A paternalistic argument could counter that. Something like: "It's acceptable for parents to lie to their children (the analogous relationship to that of God to people according to some apologists) if it is in their best interests or they are unable to understand. Therefore, deceptiveness of God may be justified."
I agree Simon, the argument is expressly anti-scientific, and science cannot evaluate the argument. It is not science, so I think it should be excluded from science classes on that ground.
However, I am not sure how it is unconstitutional to teach a religious argument if it is not preferred to other arguments. If there is no preference, it neither prohibits free exercise of religion nor prefers one religion to another or religion to irreligion. I suppose I would not mind if the argument was referenced in a non-science class if relevant (philosophy, etc). |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/27/2009 12:59:44 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 13:28:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I suppose I would not mind if the argument was referenced in a non-science class if relevant (philosophy, etc). |
Plenty of people have pointed out "comparative religion" courses which discuss various religions' creation myths as a counter to the creationists' claims that religion is being unfairly forced out of schools. Of course, those sorts of classes aren't what the creationists mean when they want their prefered religion taught.
No, if you teach about all religions equally, that's persecution of the fundagelicals! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 17:10:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Machi4velli
I suppose I would not mind if the argument was referenced in a non-science class if relevant (philosophy, etc). |
Plenty of people have pointed out "comparative religion" courses which discuss various religions' creation myths as a counter to the creationists' claims that religion is being unfairly forced out of schools. Of course, those sorts of classes aren't what the creationists mean when they want their preferred religion taught. |
Remember when there was a push to teach the bible as "literature" in public schools with promises to keep the class entirely secular and constitutional, but then an independent study found that most of these classes were little more than Sunday school indoctrination? I think we might have even had a thread here on SFN on the subject. PZ had had a post with a choice quote from the bill's sponsor: And Chisum said the legislature specifically addressed the Bible, not the Quran (sic) or any other religious writing, because "the Bible as a text ... has historical and literary value."
"It can't go off into other religious philosophies because then it would be teaching religion, when the course is meant to teach literature," he said. |
I can't find the posts about the study that examined these programs after the fact, but the results were about what one would expect from dishonesty fundies.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Puijila darwini
