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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2009 : 00:12:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Mab, what's the same-sex marriage situation now in Sweden and Europe generally? |
France as an institution, basically a 'life partnership'. It is not explicitly reserved to gays but is open to them and is often referred to as the 'gay version of marriage'.
But the advantages toward married people are actually limited, even in term of taxes -you can declare somebody as your codependent even while not being married with him- and inheritance and such. As such, there is much less advantage toward getting married and many couples stay together outside of marriage even for years.
Can't really talk about the rest of Europe with the same degree of certainty, but it seems to be to be pretty similar.
There is not nearly the same urgency to get married and people actually tend to marry later, often after at least a couple of years of dating/living together.
There is also a lower divorce rate. I believe the two are related. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 00:50:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Mab, what's the same-sex marriage situation now in Sweden and Europe generally?
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In Sweden, true same-sex marriages has been available since May 1st this year. However, for almost 15 years, there's been a civil union which was legally close to marriage, called "registered partnership".
Finland, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Great Britain, Germany, and Switzerland also have the registered partnership. Spain, Belgium, and The Netherlands have true marriage.
There is a major difference between Sweden and USA in one regard:
Until the late 1980s or early 1990s, the Swedish Lutheran Church was the official, government sponsored church of Sweden. It's still referred to as "State Church". While the connection is now severed, the democratic principles of the government still rules the church with elected representatives in the council.
Anyway, the debate in the church is still raging, but some diocese have decided to welcome same-sex marriages. Priests are not required to perform services if it is against their personal beliefs, but the Vicar is required to find a priest (maybe from a neighbouring diocese if necessary) should none be readily available. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 08:21:33 [Permalink]
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Thanks for answering my question, Mab! You, too, Simon.
It does seem that, belatedly, some states here are catching up to European standards on this matter. This is a swift and sudden change, especially for the clumsy and religion-ridden US political system. California, which recently rejected gay marriage, still has full civil union, and I think is likely to have marriage again as well. And for the first time, full same sex marriage is being legislatively enacted in several New England states.
The State Church situation in Sweden is a special case. Interesting to me is that even there, the priests are not forced to consecrate marriages that go against their "conscience." If Sweden doesn't force them, it's ludicrous to worry that the US ever will.
My impression is that freedoms historically tend to expand in the US, but only in ways that don't conflict with other freedoms.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/09/2009 08:25:03 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 17:16:13 [Permalink]
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Robb:
I commend you on your ability to separate you moral objection to something from the constitutional right. I am curious, though, as to the basis for your moral objection to same sex marriage. On what do you base this objection? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 20:28:16 [Permalink]
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| Also, as I mentioned, marriage is a much bigger deal in the US than in many European countries where the legal and tax advantages to being married are less evident. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 00:17:09 [Permalink]
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One thing I appreciate about Robb is that he seems to recognize there's a Culture War going on, but doesn't think there ought to be actual casualties. I agree. Lets try to make it a "civil" war, not a Civil War.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 07:43:39 [Permalink]
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There is no culture war. It's a term invented by paranoid right wingers to encompass everything they dislike in the evolution of the culture and its increase multi-multiculturality and to justify going against them.
It's not like anybody is actually trying to destroy Christmas... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 08:57:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
Robb:
I commend you on your ability to separate you moral objection to something from the constitutional right. I am curious, though, as to the basis for your moral objection to same sex marriage. On what do you base this objection?
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I believe the Bible to be true. It is clear that homosexuality is a sin, just like adultry. As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. In my expierience adultry is the number one reason that Christian marriages end in divorce. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 09:51:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
There is no culture war. It's a term invented by paranoid right wingers to encompass everything they dislike in the evolution of the culture and its increase multi-multiculturality and to justify going against them.
It's not like anybody is actually trying to destroy Christmas...
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I think there's a Culture War, even if it's not what the Right said it was. What it always was is a cultural struggle by the Religious Right to denigrate science, reason, social progress, and everything but Fundamentalist Christianity, in order to destroy the Constitution and impose theocratic rule.
The Culture War is now winding down, with the RR as the losers. Will they be happy that Christmas will continue to be celebrated? Since that was a strawman in the first place, I suspect the answer is no. They never cared about Christmas in the first place. It's really too "festive" for their taste.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/11/2009 09:52:54 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 21:18:41 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. |
For the people deciding the tactics to take (opposed to the followers) the reason for that is the same reason Christians oppose legal abortion but are fine with fertility clinics (which also produce thousands of fertilized eggs, knowing most will never implant in a woman's womb) - popularity. It makes strategic sense to only try to create laws which the general populace is okay with. Strategically sound, yet lacking in integrity.
| In my expierience adultry is the number one reason that Christian marriages end in divorce. |
In my experience people commit adultery because of deeper problems with their relationship. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/11/2009 21:19:36 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 22:13:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Also, as I mentioned, marriage is a much bigger deal in the US than in many European countries where the legal and tax advantages to being married are less evident.
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What does everyone think of the tax advantages? I would not be opposed to doing away with the tax benefits and only implement the legal ones for everyone (including same-sex). Of course, this will not happen... |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 02:05:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. In my expierience adultry is the number one reason that Christian marriages end in divorce. |
Uh, so that hypothetical couple of old Lesbian ladies (hypothetical here, but everyone knows people just like them) down the street who have been lovingly and monogamously together for half a century are committing the sin of adultery by formalizing their relationship with a legal marriage?
I don't buy that part.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 07:28:27 [Permalink]
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Machi4velli wrote: | What does everyone think of the tax advantages? I would not be opposed to doing away with the tax benefits and only implement the legal ones for everyone (including same-sex). Of course, this will not happen... |
I wouldn't mind if they did that and I'm married. In fact, it is kind of unfair to give married people a tax advantage since we already have the advantage of a 2 income household. Tax breaks make sense when children come into the picture, but make no sense for DINKS (Duel income no kids).
Mooner wrote: Uh, so that hypothetical couple of old Lesbian ladies (hypothetical here, but everyone knows people just like them) down the street who have been lovingly and monogamously together for half a century are committing the sin of adultery by formalizing their relationship with a legal marriage?
I don't buy that part. |
Robb didn't say that gay sex was adultery. He said it was a sin "just like" adultery. Any sex outside of marriage is considered sinful.
Robb can correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I get from his type of Christian's POV is that marriage is not merely about romantic love, so citing romantic love between two individuals isn't enough to justify sexual activity. Marriage is a much more important social institution tied to the very stability of society due to its role in rearing children, forming extended family bonds, and preventing the spread of STDs. So if I try to see his POV for a moment, I can see how my brother-in-law's recent divorce has caused a great deal of sadness and confusion in the extended family which had truly accepted his former wife into our lives and hearts. There is also something to be said based on research into children's health for people who already have children and who are single or divorced to modify their dating life with regard to their kid/s - in other words don't have another person move into the household until committed to the long-term or at least until the child/ren is/are grown. And it is a given that STDs would be much less prevelant if everyone refrained from sex outside of marriage. Now of course none of this convincing me to change my ethics because I'm considering a great deal of other reasons from the more socially liberal perspective, which I find far more convincing, but I think it is important to at least try to see the other guy's POV.
I have greater difficulty sympathizing with the Christian perspective against homosexual marriage and adoption. I tend to chalk it up to ignorance about how homosexuality has always been part of the human experience and the historically helpful role that gays have played in family life as uncles, aunts, and foster parents. This is because starting with ancient Jewish culture, homosexual behavior was associated with paganism and the ancient Jews were incredibly strict and conservative in their laws which promoted maximum procreation through a paternal line. I suppose prejudice against gays also has to do with the modern emphasis on the nuclear family which makes it so that children rarely have prominent adult figures in their everyday lives other than their parents, and thus children of gay parents are missing role models of one gender. Despite all this, I could envision a way for homosexuality to fit within the socially conservative Christian lifestyle: Christian gay men and lesbians would refrain from sex until marriage just like Christian straight people. There are a minority of people who wish for this to have social acceptance, but I doubt it ever will outside of maybe some tiny, rare communities. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/12/2009 07:29:55 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 08:58:58 [Permalink]
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I'd think that, for a Christian, gay sex and adultery are both consequence of the sin of lust.
But of course, any sex 'for purpose of entertainment' rather than outright reproduction would be the same sin, and it is the reasoning being the catholic's position behind banning birth control.
Of course, the Bible also says not to get married and, if married, to live as if you were not.
So, how come Christians do not follow these commandments?
For the same reason as they do not sell all their possessions to give to the poor, it would simply be too unpopular to advocate...
It's all bout cherry picking to justify your way of life and your prejudice... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 09:12:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I wouldn't mind if they did that and I'm married. In fact, it is kind of unfair to give married people a tax advantage since we already have the advantage of a 2 income household. Tax breaks make sense when children come into the picture, but make no sense for DINKS (Duel income no kids). |
Everyone with kids gets a tax break, regardless of marriage status.
30-year-old single person, no kids, who made $50,000 in 2008 owed $6,606 in taxes.
30-year-old single person, one kid, who made $50,000 in 2008 owed $4,731 in taxes.
But there's only a marriage bonus if the married couple's incomes are wildly different:
30-year-old married couple, no kids, wife made $50,000, husband made $0, in 2008 owed $4,013 in taxes.
30-year-old married couple, no kids, wife made $50,000, husband made $50,000, in 2008 owed $13,213 in taxes.
That last figure is a dollar more than if the couple had filed single, separately, and both had to pay $6,606.
In other words, for dual-income families, the "marriage tax benefit" is a myth. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
