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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2009 : 17:46:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
Robb:
I commend you on your ability to separate you moral objection to something from the constitutional right. I am curious, though, as to the basis for your moral objection to same sex marriage. On what do you base this objection?
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I believe the Bible to be true. It is clear that homosexuality is a sin, just like adultry. As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. In my expierience adultry is the number one reason that Christian marriages end in divorce.
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Leviticus 15:19-30
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness. |
So do you make your wife leave the house when she menstruates? If not, why not? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 03:02:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Mooner wrote: Uh, so that hypothetical couple of old Lesbian ladies (hypothetical here, but everyone knows people just like them) down the street who have been lovingly and monogamously together for half a century are committing the sin of adultery by formalizing their relationship with a legal marriage?
I don't buy that part. |
Robb didn't say that gay sex was adultery. He said it was a sin "just like" adultery. Any sex outside of marriage is considered sinful. |
I didn't express that well. I was reacting to Robb's equating the "sin" of adultery to the "sin" of my hypothetical Lesbian couple, who have already been having sex for years, but have now committed themselves "officially" to monogamy.
Robb wrote| As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. |
As I read it, that's not precisely equating "any sex out of marriage" as being "just like" adultery, as you parsed it, Marf. It's specifically equating "same sex marriage" with the sin of adultery. That's what I objected to. Maybe Robb actually meant to type "any sex outside of marriage," rather than the opposite? He can tell us what he meant.
I got the impression that Robb equates the commitment to monogamy via marriage by gays with the "sin-level" of adultery. As though it were that for homosexuals, somehow they were being more sinful as they were more monogamous, the opposite of how the sin of adultery works for heterosexuals, in Christian minds.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 06:13:08 [Permalink]
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| Dave, wow! Thanks for that enlightenment on marriage and taxes. I knew there was a tax break for kids even without marriage, but I had no idea that the taxes were so different if one spouse earns a lot and the other earns very little. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 06:31:05 [Permalink]
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Simon wrote: | I'd think that, for a Christian, gay sex and adultery are both consequence of the sin of lust. |
In the Old Testament the rules against gay sex were largely associated with pagan rituals. In the New Testament it is probably more lust since it is associated with mostly prostitution.
But of course, any sex 'for purpose of entertainment' rather than outright reproduction would be the same sin, and it is the reasoning being the catholic's position behind banning birth control.
Of course, the Bible also says not to get married and, if married, to live as if you were not. |
I agree. The Catholic stance on sex is incredibly dehumanizing.
| So, how come Christians do not follow these commandments? |
Since Christianity is not one big monolithic religion I don't think it is fair to ask this question. Also, Paul's statements on sex and marriage in the New Testament are not "commandments". The role the Bible serves and how it is properly interpreted in any Christian sect is decided by the leaders and adherents of that sect.
| It's all bout cherry picking to justify your way of life and your prejudice... |
The Bible is an inconsistent document. There is no such thing as a Christian who doesn't cherry pick it, whether they use a sophisticated theology, pedestrian Bible "study", or blindly obey some random preacher's interpretation.
Some people use the Bible to justify selfish interests and base prejudices, such as those who used it to justify slavery. Others use the Bible as a source of inspiration to act on values which support humankind, such as those whose faith moved them to fight against slavery or today whose faith moves them to fight against human trafficking, starvation and abject poverty, and homelessness. There are plenty of Christians - organizations and individuals - who regard acting on those values, opposed to just getting a ticket into heaven, as the real purpose of their faith. In my experience, Christians like that are also much less likely to be concerned about nonbelievers since they see true salvation as being through works, not literal beliefs. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/14/2009 06:32:49 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 06:50:54 [Permalink]
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Mooner wrote: | I got the impression that Robb equates the commitment to monogamy via marriage by gays with the "sin-level" of adultery. As though it were that for homosexuals, somehow they were being more sinful as they were more monogamous, the opposite of how the sin of adultery works for heterosexuals, in Christian minds. |
Honestly I don't understand Robb's complete argument against homosexual behavior. Although I don't think he means that gay monogamy is worse than gay promiscuity. The only part of it when it comes to Robb that I understand is that he thinks the Bible has only one proper interpretation and that interpretation includes God saying gay sex is sinful.
There are psychological theories that people rest on particular moral opinions first and only later come up with justifications for them. Since reading that, I notice that I tend to do this myself. Anyway, with all the homophobia, especially male homophobia in our culture, it doesn't surprise me that people use the Bible (which mentions homosexuality 6 times, mostly in the Old Testament along side stupid crap like the menstruation stuff that R. Wreck cites above, and always in the context of other "sins" - paganism and prostitution.) Then there are other Christians, even other devout, Evangelical Protestants, who don't have a problem with homosexuality. It seems obvious to me that the root source of prejudice against gay people is the very negative emotional reaction a lot of people have to the thought of having sex with someone of the same sex. The potential evils of religious thinking are shown by people who feel so strongly against gay sex that they appeal to God himself for their justification. As if anyone could know the mind of God, if there even is a god.
To Robb's credit, I really don't care what his thoughts on homosexuality are or why he has them. He doesn't want to push his personal morality on me or anyone else. If all people of wacky and extreme faith behaved like that, there wouldn't be a need for critics of religion like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. Alas... |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/14/2009 06:53:28 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 11:41:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dave, wow! Thanks for that enlightenment on marriage and taxes. I knew there was a tax break for kids even without marriage, but I had no idea that the taxes were so different if one spouse earns a lot and the other earns very little. |
Well, be careful. Don't forget that the difference in total earnings in the examples I gave was two-to-one. There's no total tax difference between a couple each making $50,000 and a couple in which one makes $90,000 and the other $10,000, since they'll both be filing married with a household income of $100,000.
However, if they hadn't been married, the person making $10,000 would have owed $105 in taxes in 2008, while the person making $90,000 would have owed $16,672, so by getting married they get a tax benefit of $3,564 since they will pay the same $13,213 as the couple making $50,000 each pays. Still a hefty savings, but not as dramatic as my previous poor example.
Think about it this way: an old-fashioned "no wife of mine is ever going to work" kinda guy making $50,000 finally finds a woman who will put up with his crap, and they get married. He realizes a $2,593 tax savings just by getting married, but now has two mouths to feed with that extra $49.87/week. But a couple who each make $50,000 get no tax benefit at all by marrying. They each still owe the $6,606 they were paying separately, before. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 13:04:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
In my experience people commit adultery because of deeper problems with their relationship.
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Agreed, but it is usually when this happens is when divorce procedings start. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 13:07:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Robb
As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. In my expierience adultry is the number one reason that Christian marriages end in divorce. |
Uh, so that hypothetical couple of old Lesbian ladies (hypothetical here, but everyone knows people just like them) down the street who have been lovingly and monogamously together for half a century are committing the sin of adultery by formalizing their relationship with a legal marriage?
I don't buy that part.
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No, rereading my comment I am not sure what I was trying to say. I think I was trying to say that adultry and homosexuality can be regarded as the same sin. Both are sex outside of marriage. If lesbians are married by the state they are not married under God and are committing adultry. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 13:15:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But of course, any sex 'for purpose of entertainment' rather than outright reproduction would be the same sin, and it is the reasoning being the catholic's position behind banning birth control.
Of course, the Bible also says not to get married and, if married, to live as if you were not. |
I am not Catholic and I see sex differently. Sex within marriage is acceptable for enjoyment, I think the Bible teaches that. It is my expierence that Catholics seem to think that sex is somehow dirty even in marriage. That is why they think that Mary was an eternal virgin even when the Bible does not indiacte that.
| Of course, the Bible also says not to get married and, if married, to live as if you were not. |
Do you have a reference?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 13:19:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I got the impression that Robb equates the commitment to monogamy via marriage by gays with the "sin-level" of adultery. As though it were that for homosexuals, somehow they were being more sinful as they were more monogamous, the opposite of how the sin of adultery works for heterosexuals, in Christian minds. |
God does not recognize homosexuals as married. So they are committing adultry, even if they are married by the state and monogomous to each other. Jesus goes on to say the lust is the same as adultry in Gods eyes, even with no physical act. He is pointing out our need for a savior. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 13:58:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Jesus goes on to say the lust is the same as adultry in Gods eyes, even with no physical act. He is pointing out our need for a savior. |
He is pointing out that God is Big Brother, and will convict people of thoughtcrime. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 14:50:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I am not Catholic and I see sex differently. Sex within marriage is acceptable for enjoyment, I think the Bible teaches that. It is my expierence that Catholics seem to think that sex is somehow dirty even in marriage. That is why they think that Mary was an eternal virgin even when the Bible does not indiacte that.
| Of course, the Bible also says not to get married and, if married, to live as if you were not. |
Do you have a reference? |
1 Corinthians:
Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that.
So then, he who marries his fiancée does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 17:07:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Robb
I am not Catholic and I see sex differently. Sex within marriage is acceptable for enjoyment, I think the Bible teaches that. It is my expierence that Catholics seem to think that sex is somehow dirty even in marriage. That is why they think that Mary was an eternal virgin even when the Bible does not indiacte that.
| Of course, the Bible also says not to get married and, if married, to live as if you were not. |
Do you have a reference? |
1 Corinthians:
Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that.
So then, he who marries his fiancée does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.
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So where does it say if you are married to live as you are not? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 17:25:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
[quote]No, rereading my comment I am not sure what I was trying to say. I think I was trying to say that adultry and homosexuality can be regarded as the same sin. Both are sex outside of marriage. If lesbians are married by the state they are not married under God and are committing adultry. |
Thank you for clarifying that. We all (I do, anyway) sometimes write words that seem to be makings sense, but don't really express whatever we were thinking. Ay least now, I realize you didn't really mean that gays become more sinful by getting married.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 17:33:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I got the impression that Robb equates the commitment to monogamy via marriage by gays with the "sin-level" of adultery. As though it were that for homosexuals, somehow they were being more sinful as they were more monogamous, the opposite of how the sin of adultery works for heterosexuals, in Christian minds. |
God does not recognize homosexuals as married. So they are committing adultry, even if they are married by the state and monogomous to each other. Jesus goes on to say the lust is the same as adultry in Gods eyes, even with no physical act. He is pointing out our need for a savior.
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I understand your position, but of course you will understand that I cannot twist myself into agreement, as you use several words (God, Jesus, savior) that have null value in my personal thinking.
I'm satisfied enough that you personally support the rights of gay to marry, even if you think such marriage is invalid before your god.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
