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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 18:47:31 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | Agreed, but it is usually when this happens is when divorce proceedings start. |
True. Adultery while in the confines of an agreed upon monogamous marriage is an incredibly hurtful act. On the bright side, I suspect that there are also many couples where there are problems which lead to thoughts of adultery, but in these cases the couple takes action to fix their problems before anyone actually commits adultery. As a married person (about to hit our 5 year anniversary) I realize that, thankfully, there is a huge chasm between simply being sexually attract to another person and actually cheating.
| God does not recognize homosexuals as married. |
How do you know? I've heard other Christians argue that the commands against homosexual activity in the Bible are against homosexuality in the context of pagan rituals and prostitution, not a loving, monogramous relationship. In the 1500's the Catholic church even blessed some gay unions. (see the book "Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe for evidence of this including transcripts of ceremonies.) The Bible says absolutely nothing about gay marriage or gay relationships. It only speaks 6 times about gay sex. Prisoners often have gay sex even when they aren't even actually gay. In Hellenistic times when the letters of Paul were written, it was fashionable in some circles for men to have sex with young, male prostitutes. How does this even compare with a gay couple who commit to each other as life partners? That's like comparing my marriage to my husband visiting a hooker.
In response to Simon's Corininthians quote: Here's a beautiful example of Biblical authors who contradict themselves. Paul is known for being anti-woman and anti-marriage and anti-sex. And yet: He who finds a wife finds a good thing
and obtains favor from the Lord.
—Proverbs 18:22 |
Robb, how do you interpret these as the word of God opposed to the word of very human Biblical authors?
Robb wrote: | So where does it say if you are married to live as you are not? |
I assumed he was referring to how Jesus had all his apostles leave their families. If the Gospels are literally true (which I doubt) how responsible was it for all those apostles to just leave their wives and children, especially in a time when women has such less status and control over their lives as today. According to the Bible, aren't husband charged with caring for their wives? And yet: | "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can't be my disciple." - Luke 14:26 |
Obviously this stuff can't be taken literally as the word of a single-minded, discreet deity. The book is so obviously a work of mankind and of a certain time and place.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2009 : 10:07:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| God does not recognize homosexuals as married. |
How do you know? I've heard other Christians argue that the commands against homosexual activity in the Bible are against homosexuality in the context of pagan rituals and prostitution, not a loving, monogramous relationship. In the 1500's the Catholic church even blessed some gay unions. (see the book "Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe for evidence of this including transcripts of ceremonies.) The Bible says absolutely nothing about gay marriage or gay relationships. It only speaks 6 times about gay sex. Prisoners often have gay sex even when they aren't even actually gay. In Hellenistic times when the letters of Paul were written, it was fashionable in some circles for men to have sex with young, male prostitutes. How does this even compare with a gay couple who commit to each other as life partners? That's like comparing my marriage to my husband visiting a hooker. |
The Bible says that sex in marriage is good. It also says homosexual sex is an abomination. So how can homosexual sex in marriage be a good thing in Gods eyes?
In response to Simon's Corininthians quote: Here's a beautiful example of Biblical authors who contradict themselves. Paul is known for being anti-woman and anti-marriage and anti-sex. And yet: He who finds a wife finds a good thing
and obtains favor from the Lord.
—Proverbs 18:22 |
Robb, how do you interpret these as the word of God opposed to the word of very human Biblical authors? |
How is this anti marriage, sex and women?
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. (Eph 5:25-33, NIV)
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 10:25:28 [Permalink]
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| Ephesians, which Paul wrote...hmmm... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 17:27:35 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | The Bible says that sex in marriage is good. It also says homosexual sex is an abomination. So how can homosexual sex in marriage be a good thing in Gods eyes? |
You have just ignored 80% of what I wrote on this topic. The Bible does not condemn homosexual sex. There are six passages in the Bible which have often been interpreted as naming gay sex as sinful, but which can easily and quite sensibly be interpreted otherwise.
Since you cited the most popular of the six - Leviticus 18:22, let's deal with that one. First, if taken quite literally and out of context, it condemns male homosexual sex, not lesbian sex. However, when taken in the context with the passages around it: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh4.htm
Verse 22 is translated in the King James Version as: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
* If the verse is considered in isolation -- as it is most often done -- then a logical interpretation is that the verse condemns all sexual activity between two males.
* If Leviticus 18:22 is considered in the context of its surrounding chapters and previous verse, then one might expect that it refers to some forbidden idolatrous activity in a Pagan temple from which the ancient Israelites must separate themselves.
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You can interpret it however you want, but you are still interpreting it.
And if you are going to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, how do you read the rest of Leviticus? There's some crazy crap in that book, including whole tirades about the uncleanliness and sinfulness menstruating women, all the orders to put people to death for various crimes such as cursing one's parents or being witches and wizards in Chapter 20. And let's not forget this gem: 21:16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. (21:16-23)
God can't stand the sight of handicapped people.
The blind, the lame, dwarfs, people with funny noses or blemishes, with damaged testicles, or broken hands or feet, crooked backs, or who have scurvy or scabs, or who have anything superfluous must not approach the altar of God.
What the Bible says about blind and handicapped people
YouTube: The 2-verse Christian Test
21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
21:22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
21:23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. |
| How is this anti marriage, sex and women? |
You are just contradicting one Paul quote with another Paul quote. You aren't dealing with the anti-marriage quote from Paul which was already cited. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 05:42:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Robb
As a matter of fact I do find it inconsistant that Christians want to ban same sex marriage but do not support laws against adultry. It is the same sin. In my expierience adultry is the number one reason that Christian marriages end in divorce. |
Uh, so that hypothetical couple of old Lesbian ladies (hypothetical here, but everyone knows people just like them) down the street who have been lovingly and monogamously together for half a century are committing the sin of adultery by formalizing their relationship with a legal marriage?
I don't buy that part.
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No, rereading my comment I am not sure what I was trying to say. I think I was trying to say that adultry and homosexuality can be regarded as the same sin. Both are sex outside of marriage. If lesbians are married by the state they are not married under God and are committing adultry.
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By that same line of reasoning, heterosexual atheist couples who are married are committing adultery.
Seems like any legislation to prohibit adultery would have that fatal 1st Amendment flaw. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 06:18:38 [Permalink]
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Val wrote:
By that same line of reasoning, heterosexual atheist couples who are married are committing adultery. |
I think you are right. Christian weddings always include God as pretty much an equal partner in the deal. Also, with the exception of some Mormons, the marriage is always expected to be heterosexual and monogamous.
But atheist marriages can vary widely. They are always done in a purely secular manner, and the language used in the text of the wedding ceremony can be quite unorthodox. For example, one wedding I officiated included this line in the couples' vows "Should I ever choose to end this relationship, I promise to treat you with dignity and respect. And should you ever choose to end this relationship, I promise to treat you with dignity and respect." Sometimes couples agree to forms of open marriage (staying committed to each other as life partners, but allowing for sex outside of the partnership) and some are even polyamorous (allowing for several committed relationships among 3 or people people.) For example, Humanist communities such as my local one must allow for family membership which include more than 2 adults because of such arrangements.
If what makes it sinful is that it is not done in a Godly-ordained manner, then all atheist marriages, even if they superficially look like the typical Christian marriage, should be considered as sinful. At least by Robb's logic. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/16/2009 06:19:02 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 06:19:48 [Permalink]
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| I wonder how "sinful" it is to get marriage in a Christian wedding ceremony because of family pressure, but not really believe in any of it. I know lots of people who have done that. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 08:35:53 [Permalink]
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| Being an atheist is a sin, regardless of marriage status. |
Well obviously! ;-) But the questions is whether or not it is an additional sin for atheists to get married in an atheistic ceremony. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 13:44:15 [Permalink]
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| I think we have established that using the bible as justification for a "moral" objection to gay marriage, when one does not follow most of the other rules in the same book, shows gross hypocrisy. Sorry, Robb, you'll have to come up with another reason to justify your homophobic views. I've yet to hear from a single gay hating christian who claims the bible backs them up that they also follow all the other laws given by their god. Why is that? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 18:31:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| Being an atheist is a sin, regardless of marriage status. |
Well obviously! ;-) But the questions is whether or not it is an additional sin for atheists to get married in an atheistic ceremony.
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Naw.
It's that whole "married but adulterous" thing.
But Dave does have a point.
What are they gonna do, stone him twice? (apologies to Life of Brian) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 19:27:34 [Permalink]
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I'm reminded of an old joke:
Joe dies and goes to Hell. There, an assistant demon starts showing Joe around, and they come to a long series of rooms. The demon tells Joe that he has to select his own eternal torment.
So the demon opens the first door, and within are people hanging from chains over a pit of fire, screaming in agony as their flesh is burned away and regrown. "No thanks," says Joe.
The demon opens the next door, where Joe sees people chained to posts, screaming in agony as little tiny demons with pitchforks stab them over and over. "Ugh, that might be worse," says Joe.
The demon opens a third door, where Joe sees a bunch of people standing in a pit, up to their waists in poo, chatting with each other. "Well," Joe says, "that doesn't look so bad. I'll pick this one."
The demon pushes Joe inside and into the pit, then leaves. And as Joe is getting introductions to the other people, another door opens and a huge, ugly demon with a whip steps into the room and bellows.
"ALRIGHT, BREAK'S OVER, GET BACK ON YER HEADS!" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 14:16:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
I think we have established that using the bible as justification for a "moral" objection to gay marriage, when one does not follow most of the other rules in the same book, shows gross hypocrisy. Sorry, Robb, you'll have to come up with another reason to justify your homophobic views. I've yet to hear from a single gay hating christian who claims the bible backs them up that they also follow all the other laws given by their god. Why is that?
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All christians ar hypocrytes. Lets be fair and say everybody is a hypocryte. Does anybody live up to their beliefs, no matter what they are? I think not. I will always say telling a lie is a sin, but I have lied since I became a christian. That does not mean that I do not believe what I preach so to speak, only I have not lived up to it all the time.
As far as gay hating. the Bible is clear that Christians must love everybody. In 1 john, it teaches that you cannot be a Christian and be incapable of not loving somebody. If you claim to be a christian and are incapable of loving somebody, you are not a christian,period. You equate not approving of a life descision with hate. That is a big assumption so you can justify calling christians "gay hating bigots". |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 16:01:51 [Permalink]
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Robb:
That is a big assumption so you can justify calling christians "gay hating bigots". |
Here's the thing. Whether you personally hate gays or not doesn't really matter. What matters is that as a group, Christians are the main voting block that would deny what many of us see as a basic right to gay's. It was Christians who took away the right for gays to marry in California, mostly. Sure, there are liberal Christians, and there are Christians like you who are somewhere in the middle. But you have to understand, it wasn't an idea that we just plucked out of thin air to blame Christians for trying to steer our country toward a theocracy. Like it or not, that many Christians would deny equal rights to people not exactly like themselves, is a fact. Passing laws based on their religion, and not because it serves us in any practical way, is a goal of many Christians.
Most of us understand that not all Christians seek to make this a "Christian Nation". But don't blame us for noticing that there are those that are trying to do just that. Hell, we are fighting with them almost constantly on a whole number if issues.
From my point of view, denying a whole segment of the population equal rights under the law and supposedly loving them at the same time just doesn't compute. Maybe you all don't hate them, but if that's love, what else have you got? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
