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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2009 : 02:47:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by filthy
And that's just the current estiment. How many more are there that simply said: "This I gotta see!" and quietly made plans? And not to mention the usual customers.
The downside of that is that Ham'll rake the gelt on this one and most of it will be from those who normally wouldn't give him the time of day. |
Actually, I predict that the downside is going to be that one or two people will act like dumbasses and get the whole lot with armbands thrown out, no refunds. And then Ham will ham it up (haha!) about how tremendously rude, vulgar and/or violent those horrible atheists were, regardless of whatever actually transpired.
This, much more than CrackerGate, is a public relations nightmare just waiting to happen. The creationists have no ethical qualms about lying for Jesus, so I think it's quite likely that at least one person is going to show up, broadcast his/her fake atheism loudly, and harrass or even assault an innocent museum patron. This person (or people) will "take one for the team" in order to further the creationist cause, and without any direction from Ham about it (or buttloads of plausible deniability).
I think PZ should have tried to keep this on the down-low. Statements like "You should also tell them [the creationists] that all the people with armbands are laughing at them" will just prompt "them" towards false-flag operations, based on how "they" think atheists behave (badly).
After all, given the "this I gotta see" crowd that you mention, it's quite likely that PZ isn't going to be able to identify any particular troublemaker as being "with" him, so at best he'll likely say, "I have no idea who Joe Schmoe the dumbass was." And the liars-for-Jesus are going to claim that without God's guidance, PZ has no basis for morality and so is a likely liar who really told Mr. Schmoe to be a dickhead on purpose.
Back in the old Usenet days, the rule-of-thumb was that for every person who posted messages to a Usenet group, there were 10 people who read but never posted (lurkers). The idea that this rule would hold for real-life meet-ups suggests that PZ is going to find himself surrounded by nearly 800 armbands, which I find unlikely. But 140 doesn't seem out-of-the-question, given 70 RSVPs. But even an extra 35 or so would be ungovernable when the only "authority figure" is PZ himself.
Think about it: on organized tours, people generally listen to the tour guides' instructions about where to go and what to do, and the tour organizers make sure to have enough tour guides to cover however many people are going on the tour, and as with teachers in grade school, the ratio tends to be one guide for every 20 or 30 people, to ensure managable groups. PZ's thing, however, is only really going to have one tour guide (PZ hisownself), and he's not going to be able to maintain order.
I certainly hope that my predictions here are wrong, but I've been in more than one situation where I mistakenly thought that the people around me shared my sense of appropriate behavior. All that's really needed is for one free-thinker to get a tiny bit uppity with a fundamentalist security guard (all employees of the museum have to sign a "statement of faith") for the whole thing to come a nasty and abrupt end, with the local cops arresting dozens and spending the whole weekend trying to figure out who did what to whom.
Were I able to go, I'd decline to wear an armband just to have some plausible deniability, myself. (My SFN button and t-shirt would probably give it away, though.)
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Every word of that crossed my mind when I read about the arm band suggestion, and I have no intention whatsoever of wearing one. I think it's a terrible idea; this is not an organized protest, after all but sure'r'n the rat made raisins, some douchebag'll try and turn it into one. Assuming I go -- I'm off Otter's house right now to check on the situation (she lives some 70 miles away and is all but impossible to get hold of on the telephone, and I want to see for myself, anyway).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 05:30:11 [Permalink]
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I'm at Otter's house and the situation looks good, or at least better than Phillip looks. The eye is still quite swollen and lovely in it's rainbow of colors, and not working properly, but he is ambulatory without the walker.
Otter sez she'll tell the story soon.
It's still tentative, but I feel a little more positive about the trip. we shall see....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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knightmare
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 07:03:48 [Permalink]
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| Actually, I predict that the downside is going to be that one or two people will act like dumbasses and get the whole lot with armbands thrown out, no refunds. And then Ham will ham it up (haha!) about how tremendously rude, vulgar and/or violent those horrible atheists were, regardless of whatever actually transpired. |
I've also thought of this happening. When I first read the story, my wife said "They'll never get in. Ken Ham won't allow it." With that many (at least) showing up with armbands announcing who they are, there's bound to be a few who act out to get attention.
And I'm sure someone at the museum has seen PZ's post as well and they'll be ready for them. Even if no one acts up, Ham can still say "All we're trying to do is spread the truth of creation and all the evolutionists want to do is shut us up."
I'd still like to go, but after reading these latest developments, and my car and money situation, I may hold off. Just seeing this place for one's self, as an atheist, would be good for shits-n-giggles, no matter when you go.
Besides, I've got Kentucky Christian University close by. Maybe Dr. Jason Lisle will come here when classes start back up with his "ultimate proof" for creation.
Filthy, if you do go, be sure to wave when you go by. I'll be sure to wave back at you.
Laters
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 10:27:13 [Permalink]
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| I personally don't like the whole idea of arm-bands. It kinda, at least to me open the doors to deplorable parallels that I am sure the creationist will greatly enjoy. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 10:56:26 [Permalink]
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| While the intention is good, I find it troubling that any support is given to the creationist museum. In this economy, I'm sure there are more educational and enlightening places to donate money. I suppose you could donate at least double to a scientific education charity to reduce the impact, but personally, I wouldn't give a dime of my money to creationism by paying that admission fee. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 13:16:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
While the intention is good, I find it troubling that any support is given to the creationist museum. In this economy, I'm sure there are more educational and enlightening places to donate money. I suppose you could donate at least double to a scientific education charity to reduce the impact, but personally, I wouldn't give a dime of my money to creationism by paying that admission fee.
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This too, sticks sharply in my craw and, as I posted earlier, Ham is going to rake in enough scratch to finance a whole Bible Camp dedicated to killing the intellect of children. But I balance this against "Know thine enemy." I have read volumes about his monument to religious hogwash, and written not a little on that same, mendacious subject. I have kept track of it ever since he ripped off AiG Australia, came here, to the Land of Religious Suckers with Money, and despoiled some pretty, Kentucky acreage for his theft of knowledge with some 27 million cash donated by those very same suckers. That acreage, incidentally, is virtually on top of some very rich fossil beds.
But I have never seen it. I have never walked, aghast, among it's rather splendid, I'm told, animatronic exhibits nor left the grounds enraged over the utter crap so skillfully presented to a scientifically illiterate public. And I want to. PZ's little ron-de-lay is merely an excuse to do what I fully intend to do one day, anyway. The seventeen dollars (I get a three buck, dirty-old-codger discount, big freakin' deal) entrance fee is worth it for the vitriol and venom it will most likely inspire in me.
So, if I can, I'm going. I'll meet PZ, who I admire and respect in spite of his dangerous over-enthusiasm for this thing, and perhaps even Big Money hisownself, whom I do not respect at all and would only admire if he were doing a Rattlesnake-juggling act during intermission.
But we'll see; the dates are still a little way off.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 22:21:47 [Permalink]
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If I absolutely *had* to shell out the money for admission, I should at least be allowed to ask questions such as:
"So, on what day did God create the dinosaurs? And on which day did he change his mind and wipe them out? And why would God put dinosaurs in a desert in the Middle East?"
"I heard that AiG is in financial trouble, does this mean it gets a government bailout? Oh, sorry, wrong AIG..." |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2009 : 02:49:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
If I absolutely *had* to shell out the money for admission, I should at least be allowed to ask questions such as:
"So, on what day did God create the dinosaurs? And on which day did he change his mind and wipe them out? And why would God put dinosaurs in a desert in the Middle East?"
"I heard that AiG is in financial trouble, does this mean it gets a government bailout? Oh, sorry, wrong AIG..."
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Hell, I already have those Answers; they're right there in Genesis:
1. Day Six Of The Creation.
2. The Great Big Frakin' Flood.
3. God Cannot Be Questioned.
4. Would You Care To Make A Donation?
No matter what question you ask, they will have an answer. It might not make a lot of sense to anyone with even the most tenuous grasp of evolutionary science, but it's what they do; they answer.
They also lie. They lie long, they lie loud, and they lie without shame; lemmee put up an example. AiG claims that they are not promoting their nonsense to be taught in the public schools, but yet they publish this on their site:
"Today's public schools attempt to indoctrinate children with a naturalistic, godless worldview. This article talks about a few of the ideas being taught in today's curricula. It also looks at how our children can be equipped to stand in such environments.
Most parents who take their children to church on Sunday also send them off to a secular school the rest of the week. This is the case in approximately 88% of U.S. households with school-age children. If the teacher teaches from secular textbooks, the child's Christian education is challenged.
At church they are taught that they are special in God's eyes; in fact, they are created in His image. In most secular schools they hear the philosophy of naturalism, the idea that mass and energy are all that exist and that the universe and life all arose by natural processes. There is no supernatural Creator God.
In a key 1995 statement, the National Association of Biology Teachers (NABT) affirmed that naturalism is a fundamental tenet of science education:
The diversity of life on earth is the outcome of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance, historical contingencies and changing environments.
“Unsupervised” means no Creator God. “Impersonal” means life has no special meaning. “Unpredictable” means we are a product of blind chance. “Natural process” means processes inherent in matter. It should be noted that in 1997, the NABT removed the words, “unsupervised” and “impersonal” when they realized they were distancing themselves from religious people, but the words “unpredictable” and “natural processes” remain.
It appears that secular textbooks are following these tenets well. Consider these quotes from some popular textbooks:
#9632;“Evolution is not goal oriented” (Campbell and Reece, AP Edition Biology, 2005, p. 486).
#9632;“But all researchers agree on certain basic facts. We know, for example, that humans evolved from ancestors we share with other living primates such as chimpanzees and apes” (Miller and Levine, Biology, 2000, p. 757).
The NABT's position statement directly contradicts biblical creation and the gospel of Jesus Christ. As Jesus said in Mark 10:6, “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female” (KJV).
Jesus clearly states that man and woman were on planet earth from the beginning of creation, not after millions of years of unsupervised evolution. If we can't trust the words of Jesus, then why should we trust Him as our Savior?
In today's science textbooks, students are being forced, tricked, or misled |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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knightmare
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 14:02:46 [Permalink]
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I have a couple questions:
| #9632;Apparel—Christian messages on clothing or jewelry may be worn unless there is a uniform requirement that applies equally to everyone. |
If christians are able to wear clothes with a christian message, would atheists be able to wear clothes with an atheist message?
| #9632;Open discussion—Religious viewpoints may be shared as part of class discussions when appropriate to the topic. |
Could someone then be free to bring up anti-religious viewpoints?
| #9632;Tracts & other literature—Students may distribute Christian literature to fellow students or teachers on school grounds outside of class hours. |
Once again, how about distributing atheist literature?
If christian students have these rights, it seems only fair that non-religious students should have the same rights, but I know Ken Ham and others don't see it that way. They want all the rights, including the right not to hear from the godless hordes.
Claim #2: Dinosaurs evolved.
“For roughly 150 million years, dinosaurs dominated life on land. They evolved from the thecodonts, an extinct group of crocodile-like reptiles” (Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, Biology: Principles & Explorations, 2001, p. 740).
This claim is full of assumptions about the past, which directly contradict Scripture. According to the Bible, all land animals were created on the same day as the first humans, and so they shared the same world only a few thousand years ago. |
This is something I've heard so many times. Creationists start with the conclusion and try to bend the evidence to fit that conclusion. "We know the bible is the word of god and tells us the truth. Therefore, the evidence MUST fall in line with the bible. If it doesn't, we'll just ignore it and tell everyone else to do the same". This, to me, is ridiculous.
"Because god said so" is not an answer. It's a way to avoid answering the tough questions.
Laters
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 17:18:35 [Permalink]
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Another complication has arisen, a most unexpected one, and on any other run, a welcome one. Roland "Sonny" Tarlton wants to come with me. Sonny is a hardcore biker and he and I have pounded a great many miles over the decades. He's righteous and has never left a brother behind. And indeed, a good man to have with you when the scene gets ugly. Like myself, he has been a charter member of a 1% club and has ridden and partied with the Angels. Still does, once in a while, as do I.
Now, you might think that he'd be the perfect partner for a beat-up, old biker to have on a longish ride, and you'd be right; he is. But, some 15 years or so back, he and his wife, Krista, became a born-again Christians. He is a founding member of Biker's Church, which is pretty much more of the same.
Sonny would not be amused if some asshole with an arm-band laughed at him. Nor would I.
But if I go, and it's looking more likely all the time, he and Jesus'll be with me.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 18:53:09 [Permalink]
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| The body count is up to 101. I didn't realize the descent on Ham's misnomer was organized enough that they're offering $10 early registration (as opposed to $22 at the door), and that they've invited Ham to lead the tour. That mitigates some of my earlier misgivings... but only some. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 23:07:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Another complication has arisen... |
Yup, I think "complication" would cover that one. 
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 23:15:04 [Permalink]
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Angels? You mean the group with the word "Hell's" before it?
Hopefully he's not so fundamentalist to believe that God literally created the earth, which is 6000 years old... |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 23:22:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Another complication has arisen, a most unexpected one, and on any other run, a welcome one. Roland "Sonny" Tarlton wants to come with me. Sonny is a hardcore biker and he and I have pounded a great many miles over the decades. He's righteous and has never left a brother behind. And indeed, a good man to have with you when the scene gets ugly. Like myself, he has been a charter member of a 1% club and has ridden and partied with the Angels. Still does, once in a while, as do I.
Now, you might think that he'd be the perfect partner for a beat-up, old biker to have on a longish ride, and you'd be right; he is. But, some 15 years or so back, he and his wife, Krista, became a born-again Christians. He is a founding member of Biker's Church, which is pretty much more of the same.
Sonny would not be amused if some asshole with an arm-band laughed at him. Nor would I.
But if I go, and it's looking more likely all the time, he and Jesus'll be with me.
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Damn filthy. From a potential essay point of view, your company, to my way of thinking, would be perfect company. Oh how I wish I could be there. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 02:14:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The body count is up to 101. I didn't realize the descent on Ham's misnomer was organized enough that they're offering $10 early registration (as opposed to $22 at the door), and that they've invited Ham to lead the tour. That mitigates some of my earlier misgivings... but only some.
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Mine too -- I wonder if Ham will do it. I think probably; it would make a talking point for the website, if nothing else.
Angels? You mean the group with the word "Hell's" before it?
Hopefully he's not so fundamentalist to believe that God literally created the earth, which is 6000 years old... |
Y'know what? I don't know. I've dropped by some of his services, but it's never come up. It's mostly just NT stuff. I suspect I'll find out on this run.
Our local chapter of 81 is quite small and keeps a low profile. Therefore they pretty much stay out of jail. Sonny and I've known them for a lot of years as well, although almost all of the old-timers are retired, and a couple are dead.
| Damn filthy. From a potential essay point of view, your company, to my way of thinking, would be perfect company. Oh how I wish I could be there. |
It's gonna be a trip, both literally and figuratively. I'm going down to Otter's tomorrow and see how the situation is shaping up. And speaking of whom, I've read her latest essay on prayer in the schools and it is excellent. The kid is turning into a better'n average writer. Much better. I'd like to see her try a little fiction, something that I simply can't do.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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I don’t think I can make it to this…
