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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2009 : 21:32:16
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I have been posting for a while at uncommondescent (under the name "Hoki"). As a few of you know, this can be an interesting experience. In the thread Not even wrong I've made several posts but I think that the most interesting part starts at around post #115 (I responded to Joseph's comments where he calls evoltionists chimps).
Here is a breakdown of the "conversation"
Joseph: Evolutionists like to be related to chimps, therefore I can call them chimps.
Me: People "like" to be related to people. Some people are idiots. Is it therefore OK for me to call you people idiots?
Joseph: there is no evidence that humans and chimps share ancestors.
Me: Yeah, right. Argument from authority: Michael “chimp” Behe accepts that humans and apes are related. Is it alright if I call you idiot or not?
Moderator: Hoki, Qualifies you for moderation.
Me (to moderator): Shame you didn't read all of mine and Joseph's exchange.
Moderator: I did. (in another thread, this moderator basically said it was alright for IDists to be nasty to evolutions, but not the other way round, because there is such a thing as righteous anger. And I wasn't even doing any name calling in the first place)
Ah, yes. The moderation rules at uncommondescent. My last comments are in moderation:
Joseph: But you can prove that I am an idiot just by substantiating your claims with actual scientific data (re human and chimp ancestry).
Me: I was never trying to prove that you were an idiot. I thought that much was pretty obvious…
I think that comment will be lost on him.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 06:19:32 [Permalink]
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I'm sure you pointed out the common endogenous retroviral insertions in the primate line, human chromosome 2, and a few other bits of evidence that clearly demonstrate common ancestry between humans and chimps? Not that it would do you any good in that "forum"....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2009 : 07:26:06 [Permalink]
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Hey Kil, lets make a little room on the Group W Bench. Here comes another one!
"Kinda like rassling a pig in the slops -- you both get dirty, but the pig likes it."
What a pity we'll never get any of the IDolts in here, where they will recieve no more wussy mollycoddling from moeration than anyone else.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:50:44 [Permalink]
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Ervs are indeed a great place to start.
But creationists have made up excuses for them. They are not very good, but none of creationists' excuses ever are. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 15:37:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I'm sure you pointed out the common endogenous retroviral insertions in the primate line, human chromosome 2, and a few other bits of evidence that clearly demonstrate common ancestry between humans and chimps? Not that it would do you any good in that "forum"....
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I'm not even going to get into an argument about the evidence for common descent since it's really irrelevant to the discussion. And it would, as you say, not do any good. Especially not with Joseph. It's almost worth clicking on his name in his comments for the link to his blog. The guy is the very definition of insane. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13479 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 17:51:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Hey Kil, lets make a little room on the Group W Bench. Here comes another one!
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I do believe that Dave has also joined us on the bench.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 18:17:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
Hey Kil, lets make a little room on the Group W Bench. Here comes another one!
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I do believe that Dave has also joined us on the bench.
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Excellent! Our numbers grow and soon we can put the Plan into place. Skeptics shall rule from the Bench forever..... well, maybe not that long..... or at all, even. But whadda hell, if nothing else, we've sown discord amongst the discordant.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26026 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 20:02:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I do believe that Dave has also joined us on the bench. |
I'm not sure. If I made an ultra-nice post or two, I could probably get off moderation again. I just don't have the inclination to do so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 20:45:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Ervs are indeed a great place to start.
But creationists have made up excuses for them. They are not very good, but none of creationists' excuses ever are. |
Really? I'm curious. Several years ago (or more) we had a (ahem) "debate" with a so-called creationist and our SFN representative used this argument as his first line of argument and I was completely amazed. I personally find it difficult to explain this away besides just invoking magic Yahweh hand-waving (or Lucifer, I guess). What sorts of arguments have been marshaled? |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 21:27:30 [Permalink]
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That the viruses don't insert at random (some of them might, indeed, have a weak predisposition for certain areas or short sequences, but yes, it is essentially random).
That some of them actually contain regulating genes used by the host (not sure about that) and that the whole sequences are actually regular genes, not inserted viruses.
That it is just a coincidence (they are not necessarily aware of the odds).
As I said, not very good arguements... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2009 : 14:16:16 [Permalink]
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And now Clive "moderator" Hayden has chimed in saying something along the lines of that humans budding of from the ear lobes of chimps is no more extraordinary than the fact that humans and chimps exist at all. I don't think that he understands conditional probabilities very well.
Joseph, in the mean time, claims that a hypothesis needs to offer an exclusive explanation for a set of observations (i.e. it should exclude the possibility that other hypotheses might be correct).
Joseph also claims that any evidence for common descent has to be circular.Of course, he doesn't provide any evidence for why this has to be so. He can claim this, he thinks, because it is obvious.
Why do I bother? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2009 : 15:04:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
And now Clive "moderator" Hayden has chimed in saying something along the lines of that humans budding of from the ear lobes of chimps is no more extraordinary than the fact that humans and chimps exist at all. I don't think that he understands conditional probabilities very well.
Joseph, in the mean time, claims that a hypothesis needs to offer an exclusive explanation for a set of observations (i.e. it should exclude the possibility that other hypotheses might be correct).
Joseph also claims that any evidence for common descent has to be circular.Of course, he doesn't provide any evidence for why this has to be so. He can claim this, he thinks, because it is obvious.
Why do I bother?
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Because it's fun while it lasts?
When you finally peel the overly-thick and sticky rind off their arguments, all they actually have is the God of the Gaps fallacy and Argumentum ad Inorantiam (incredulity). Thus, they need tight moderation lest they get chewed up and cuspidored by precocious high-school kids.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Uncommon descent part ... who knows?
