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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2009 : 22:08:58 [Permalink]
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Translation: no single law will turn the U.S.A. into a socialist state, but if you support even a single Federal law which promotes the general welfare, then you're a socialist. It's ludicrous in its self-contradiction. (Dave w)
You may not be a full fledged socialist if you support a socialist idea, but you certainly are playing into the hands of the card carrying socialists and you are being led away from the purpose of this form of government - a republic with limited powers. Remember how the Nazi party, a minority of Germans, took control of Germany? As people went along with their policies it didn't matter if they were fascists or not, as long as they didn't oppose the party. Those who opposed them were persecuted and punished.
Socialism makes the State God with power over the people, a few people deciding the fate of many and making up all morality according to the whims of those in power. Is this what you want? Answer the question directly: are you a socialist? Do you want America to be a socialist state or do you want it to remain a republic? This topic is larger than just the health care bill issue. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 22:21:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Constitutional or otherwise, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are all social insurance programs. Do you consider Social Security to be "socialist," Doomar?
I note that you seem to equate "socialist" with "evil." Would/do you bravely refuse to accept any Social Security income?
(For the record, I would be, at best, starving and living on the street were it not for Social Security. And I know I'm not alone.) |
HM,I've grown up under the Social Security program, not knowing any better. That happened before my time and I must accept it as the way things currently are. I realize now that it was initiated outside of Constitutional authority..It should have been done by Amendment with 2/3rds Congress and 3/4ths state approval. Medicare and Caid, the same. I believe all of these programs would be different and better if done according to the Constitution, following the correct line of authority.
By the way, I think I explained my understanding of socialism in another post. The social security system does not give government control over the people. The main problems result from an abuse of the program and misuse of the funds. Governments controlling the health care system, transportation or automobile industries, banking industries, Wall street...now that is a trend to socialism that is alarming. Misuse of the people's funds for non-sanctioned activity..that is alarming.
I can stress the importance of following the laws correctly and correcting what we can correct and preventing further erosion. I also oppose electronic voting, but that doesn't mean I won't vote. I want to see it changed to a verified method. We use what we have. Personally I can promote responsible use of these programs and fraud prevention and govt. accountability. By the way, you and I have paid into these programs for years and we should expect the federal govt. to follow through with its promises...this program can be made better, I believe.They definitely should not be taking money out of this fund to fund other projects, as they have. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 08/12/2009 22:27:00 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 22:26:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Socialism makes the State God with power over the people, a few people deciding the fate of many and making up all morality according to the whims of those in power. Is this what you want? Answer the question directly: are you a socialist? Do you want America to be a socialist state or do you want it to remain a republic? This topic is larger than just the health care bill issue.
[My emphasis] |
Jeeze, Doomar! Could you possibly try projecting even more obviously? It seems xtian conservatives recognize true evil when they "see" it, and they know its name is "God." So they constantly call atheism a "religion" and secular government social programs that they dubiously label as socialism, they call "God."
You do have a good mind for using swear words, I admit.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 22:45:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
HM,I've grown up under the Social Security program, not knowing any better. That happened before my time and I must accept it as the way things currently are. |
So you'll take Social Security, just as I do. Fine. I suspect that almost all conservatives will line up for the national medical plan, too. Funny thing about that: People of all stripes like to eat, have a roof over their heads, and be healthy.| I realize now that it was initiated outside of Constitutional authority..It should have been done by Amendment with 2/3rds Congress and 3/4ths state approval. Medicare and Caid, the same. I believe all of these programs would be different and better if done according to the Constitution, following the correct line of authority. |
Except you've not cited even one tiny piece of evidence (such as a Supreme Court decision) that such programs are unconstitutional.| By the way, I think I explained my understanding of socialism in another post. The social security system does not give government control over the people. The main problems result from an abuse of the program and misuse of the funds. Governments controlling the health care system, transportation or automobile industries, banking industries, Wall street...now that is a trend to socialism that is alarming. Misuse of the people's funds for non-sanctioned activity..that is alarming. |
Not as alarming as the desperate financial situation the country was in at the end of the last Administration. There was a looming prospect of a total collapse of financial systems, thanks to generations of deregulation.| I can stress the importance of following the laws correctly and correcting what we can correct and preventing further erosion. I also oppose electronic voting, but that doesn't mean I won't vote. |
So also do I oppose it. It's too easy to manipulate.| I want to see it changed to a verified method. We use what we have. Personally I can promote responsible use of these programs and fraud prevention and govt. accountability. By the way, you and I have paid into these programs for years and we should expect the federal govt. to follow through with its promises...this program can be made better, I believe.They definitely should not be taking money out of this fund to fund other projects, as they have. |
I agree with the last, but when has Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid money been taken for other uses?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 23:08:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Translation: no single law will turn the U.S.A. into a socialist state, but if you support even a single Federal law which promotes the general welfare, then you're a socialist. It's ludicrous in its self-contradiction. (Dave w)
You may not be a full fledged socialist if you support a socialist idea, but you certainly are playing into the hands of the card carrying socialists and you are being led away from the purpose of this form of government - a republic with limited powers. Remember how the Nazi party, a minority of Germans, took control of Germany? As people went along with their policies it didn't matter if they were fascists or not, as long as they didn't oppose the party. Those who opposed them were persecuted and punished.
Socialism makes the State God with power over the people, a few people deciding the fate of many and making up all morality according to the whims of those in power. Is this what you want? Answer the question directly: are you a socialist? Do you want America to be a socialist state or do you want it to remain a republic? This topic is larger than just the health care bill issue. |
Doomar, we've had this discussion already, and every time I bring up the Achille's Heel of your position, you run away. Try not to do it this time.
The biggest problem with your position is that in our representative republic, a single person (called the "President") can decide the fate of 300,000,000 simply by signing or vetoing legislation. The idea that you reject the Supreme Court as a tiny minority is insane when the President is the tiniest minority possible.
Second to that is your bizarre idea that socialism is fascism, despite all the empirical evidence to the contrary coming out of present-day Europe. Hitler was not a socialist, he was a totalitarian tyrant.
Last, your whole argument depends upon a slippery slope which is just not in evidence anywhere in the world. No representative republic has ever slid down into fascism just because the citizens decided that a few social-welfare projects were good-enough ideas to implement.
In short: yes, this country should remain a representative democracy. And when "We, the people" decide to create programs to "promote the general welfare," it is not an indication that the country will become a brutal dictatorship.
Now that I've answered your question, why don't you answer mine? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 23:30:17 [Permalink]
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Sheesh Doomar. So are you cool with the way health insurance companies do there thing? Are you cool with the idea that over 50 million Americans are without access to affordable or adequate health insurance? Is your fear of socialism, which is not what is being considered, greater than your concern for people who will die because of the current system?
What the hell is wrong with you? I'll give you one. Who cares what the founding fathers thought? They weren't facing the kinds of problems we are having today. And you can't tell me that they would reject anything that smacks of socialism if they were to see the country as it is now. I'm sick to death of that stupid argument. Jefferson said we should have a revolution every twenty years. Do you really believe that he wanted it to stay exactly the way it was set up, largely by him, after making such a statement? In his wisdom, he knew that things change.
Christian charity isn't going to cut it. If that were the case, we wouldn't be facing this crisis. We need health care reform.
Hey, did you see the profits the big insurers took in last year? Do you know why they are making so much?
I don't get the religious right at all. How unchristian can you be to want to preserve a system of government that leaves 50 million of its people without access to health care in order to preserve the past.
Honest. What the hell is wrong with you? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 05:31:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Translation: no single law will turn the U.S.A. into a socialist state, but if you support even a single Federal law which promotes the general welfare, then you're a socialist. It's ludicrous in its self-contradiction. (Dave w)
You may not be a full fledged socialist if you support a socialist idea, but you certainly are playing into the hands of the card carrying socialists and you are being led away from the purpose of this form of government - a republic with limited powers. Remember how the Nazi party, a minority of Germans, took control of Germany? As people went along with their policies it didn't matter if they were fascists or not, as long as they didn't oppose the party. Those who opposed them were persecuted and punished.
Socialism makes the State God with power over the people, a few people deciding the fate of many and making up all morality according to the whims of those in power. Is this what you want? Answer the question directly: are you a socialist? Do you want America to be a socialist state or do you want it to remain a republic? This topic is larger than just the health care bill issue.
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Fear and ignorance can and will be taken advantage of by those whose power, authority, and greed remain dependent. Your concerns are being addressed in this thread and others should you choose to pay attention. Or you can continue to yield to your fears which I suspect that you will since you rarely address any of the salient points made in response to your lack of understanding. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 08:58:22 [Permalink]
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Doomar.....
You state:| Why is it, Moakley, that you or I are thought to be unable to interpret our own Constitution? Do you think yourself incapable? Are these men more than men who cannot make great mistakes? |
1. The Supreme Court was established by implementation of Article III of the Constitution to protect citizens from violations of the Bill of Rights --which is the first ten amendments to that same Constitution. Therefore, The Supreme Court is an integral and essential part of the Constitution and no strict Constitutionalist can possibly deny the legitimacy of SCOTUS under the Constitution.
The Supreme Court is part and parcel of the Constitution!| Are these men more than men who cannot make great mistakes? |
2. The Supreme Court has both men and women justices! Yes, WOMEN! Two of them!| I do not need six men/women to tell me what my Constitution means. |
Good! You are learning! However...
3. You may not need the Supreme Court to constrain your legal perogatives, but you and all citizens are bound by it's decisions. If your actions are contrary to SCOTUS decisions, you are breaking federal law and will be arrested and punished.| I do not need six men/women to tell me what my Constitution means. |
4. There are nine Justices of the Supreme Court, not six!| Most of you in this forum walk in goose step to their commands, like mindless zombies |
5. I'm not sure about goosestepping zombies, but citizens of the United States are bound by federal regulation to abide by Constitutional law as established or amended by the Supreme Court. To act otherwise is anarchy.
Zoomar Doomar, your problem is ignorance! Have you considered remedial education back to the primary grades?
(Edited to redact reference to comic book character)
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 08/13/2009 09:05:05 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 09:58:36 [Permalink]
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I think whether one wants "socialism" or not (or whatever other scare word one wishes to hold as a evil spectre before our eyes), I think there is one thing that the American constitution and the structure of the society is built for, given its electoral political structure and its "peers-based" judicial system. And that something is change, flexibility and adaptation. Someone, somewhere had the wisdom to understand that an inflexible, dogmatic political structure was maladaptive and doomed to failure over time. There seemed to have been some inkling that perhaps attitudes may, perhaps necessarily will, change over time. There are legitimate means, built into the constitution, that allow for change. One would think they are there for a reason. The only real things that seems to be set in stone in the American constitution is the capacity for considered change and understandings to protect the application of this particular function; otherwise it seems not a holy writ at all. It seems, the "minimum essentials" are posited specifically so that later generations may determine the particulars as they go.
I may be completely off in this understanding; I am, after all, not an American. Still, if I am understanding it more or less correctly, then I would have a great deal of respect for the American constitution. Surely it must be more than just a means to enforce petty trivialities. To say that a particular economic systems or way of thought is "Unamerican" seems rather odd. Just as it seems rather odd to say that any given economic system is anti-skeptical. The issue at stake is larger than the economic system of the day, is it not?
Still, I tread lightly here, and stand to be corrected.
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 10:37:35 [Permalink]
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Dumbmar said:
| Socialism is a progressive move away from individual control and responsibility to government control. |
Anyone else see his slick little attempt to conflate progressive and socialism?
Doomar, you (and the imbeciles like you) are the only threat to democracy this country faces. You loudly cheer as your civil liberties are stripped away by G.W.Bush, you applaud a war of agression (launched in obvious violation of the US constitution, and still has no declaration of war to go with it), you are still positive there are WMD in Iraq, you praise the stupidest person ever in the history of US politics (Palin) who also happens to be responsible for an actual socialistic program (the oil money all Alaskans recieve because they decided that the oil was the property of the collective)....
A TRILLION OF YOUR DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SPENT ON A WAR LAUNCHED ON THE AUTHORITY OF ONE FUCKING SLIGHTLY RETARDED MAN!
That is enough cash to pay the healthcare bill of every US citizen for 100 years, rebuild every US school, rebuild every US highway and bridge, and pay the college tuition of every American for 100 years. And you have the balls to come here and cry about how spending some money to CARE FOR THE SICK IS SOCIALISM! Nice fucking christian values you have there.
.... Yet you refuse to accept the evidence of Obama's citizenship. Birth certificate, old newspaper announcements, hospital and city records all show him as clearly being born on US soil.
In short, you make me fucking ill.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 10:42:58 [Permalink]
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Doomar, you're speaking of socialism as if it's a bad thing...
That doesn't make sense to me.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 10:51:54 [Permalink]
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dglas.....
You need no correction. The US Constitution has to be seen in a different perspective in 2009 than it was in 1779. Of course it needs to be interpreted. The rigid "constructionists" like Scalia (and the pathetic Paleolithic parrots like Doomar who whine about any "interpretation" of the Constitution) ignorantly ignore the simple fact that we live in a totally different world than did the Founding Fathers.
The justices of SCOTUS have a remarkably difficult task in correctly applying the principles inherent in the Constitution to the legal and litigation problems of the 21st century! Bedrock constructionism as idealized by Scalia and to a somewhat lesser degree by Roberts and Alito, is preposterous on the face of it. We are not living in the 1700's and what the Constitution doesn't say about a myriad of legal and human rights problems that are manifest today, but did not exist at the time of the drafting of the Constitution, is perhaps more important than what it does say!
"Judicial activism" is not only a good thing, it is an inevitable thing. Any other view of the proper role of SCOTUS is ignorant, or worse, my favorite word stupid! |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 12:59:26 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 13:00:15 [Permalink]
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Personally the only good fix I see for our heath care issues is to go to a single payer system....WAY more socialist than Obama's proposed Universal health care!
Having a government run and paid health care system does not make us a socialist country. It simply makes us have a government run health care system. Which, by the way, we could always change in the future. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 13:05:17 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Socialism
