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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 11/11/2009 : 15:55:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Dude
Its sad that you cling to this particular lie Robb. The evidence that proves you wrong is overwhelming.
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Yes, but knowing something is so much more difficult than believing something. Just look at the steps marfknox describes in her effort to learn about Holdron. Glenn Beck wouldn't ask or even expect us to work that hard for what we believe we know. Hell every Beck broadcast includes Glenn sincerely stating that the American people are the smartest people in the world. Isn't that something we should all want to believe from the gut. 
Hell, Glenn Beck is an idiot. The last thing he wants is for the American people to do the work necessary to know things. How else could a buffoon like him make 18 million a year. He needs idiot america.
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Yeah, and then any reasonable and rational person (if they had bought into the beck/malkin/limbaugh/orielly line) would have to admit that their data source is intentionally misleading them. They would have to re-examine other claims made by those same sources and in doing so they would see the pattern of deliberate distortion and lies.
I no longer think Robb is capable of admitting his error though. He is too deeply invested into the lies and appears incapable of real understanding.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 18:41:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
Make your own judgement. Holdren and his co-authors does seem to be advocating forced abortions, taking away babies from single mothers, involuntary sterilizing humans. |
Yeah, sure, Robb, their advocacy is exactly why they wrote this:Compulsory control of family size is an unpalatable idea, but the alternatives may be much more horrifying. As those alternatives become clearer to an increasing number of people in the 1980s, they may begin demanding such control. A far better choice, in our view, is to expand the milder methods of influencing family size preferences, while redoubling efforts to ensure that the means of birth control, including abortion and sterilization, are accessible to every human being on Earth within the shortest possible time. If effective action is taken promptly against population growth, perhaps the need for the more extreme involuntary or repressive measures can be averted in most countries. [My bold.] In other words, Robb, your conclusion that Holdren advocates these horrors is flatly and unambiguously contradicted by the reference you offer in support of it.
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But then they go on to say this "Survival of human society nevertheless seems likely to require the imposition of direct population control measures beyond family planning in most LDC's." |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 18:54:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by moakley
[quote]Originally posted by Dude
Its sad that you cling to this particular lie Robb. The evidence that proves you wrong is overwhelming.
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Yes, but knowing something is so much more difficult than believing something. Just look at the steps marfknox describes in her effort to learn about Holdron. Glenn Beck wouldn't ask or even expect us to work that hard for what we believe we know. Hell every Beck broadcast includes Glenn sincerely stating that the American people are the smartest people in the world. Isn't that something we should all want to believe from the gut.
Hell, Glenn Beck is an idiot. The last thing he wants is for the American people to do the work necessary to know things. How else could a buffoon like him make 18 million a year. He needs idiot america.
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Ok Dude you think I am an idiot, shit eater, liar, brainwashed, bad father, crazy, wingnut, irrational etc. Just let me know what other insults I left out or feel free to add any more of your own. We will disagree on the subject of Holdren if you can handle that.
You know marfnox and I probably agree on 10% (I bet you call me a liar because the number is not actually 10%) of topics, yet she can disagree with me without getting insulting and childish. Dude, why do you think its ok to insult people you do not agree with? I think its because you do not see value in every life, only life you agree with. Just being human is not enough for you to respect others, they must think like you as well. Do you think that is a fair assessment of you?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:01:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
But then they go on to say this "Survival of human society nevertheless seems likely to require the imposition of direct population control measures beyond family planning in most LDC's." |
Yeah, like encouraging "attitude changes and counteracting the effects of pronatalist traditions," as in the second sentence after the one you quote out of context.
Quote-mining, Robb, is a blatant form of lying. The fact that you're doing it so shamelessly to promote a Fox News political agenda whose goal is to do nothing more than slander a man is simply disgusting. Do Holdren and his co-authors owe you money or something? Why are you trying so hard to twist their plain meaning into something sinister? Is all this effort really going to help you attain some goal of yours? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:09:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Dude
Its sad that you cling to this particular lie Robb. The evidence that proves you wrong is overwhelming.
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Yes, but knowing something is so much more difficult than believing something. Just look at the steps marfknox describes in her effort to learn about Holdron. Glenn Beck wouldn't ask or even expect us to work that hard for what we believe we know. Hell every Beck broadcast includes Glenn sincerely stating that the American people are the smartest people in the world. Isn't that something we should all want to believe from the gut.
Hell, Glenn Beck is an idiot. The last thing he wants is for the American people to do the work necessary to know things. How else could a buffoon like him make 18 million a year. He needs idiot america.
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Yeah, and then any reasonable and rational person (if they had bought into the beck/malkin/limbaugh/orielly line) would have to admit that their data source is intentionally misleading them. They would have to re-examine other claims made by those same sources and in doing so they would see the pattern of deliberate distortion and lies.
I no longer think Robb is capable of admitting his error though. He is too deeply invested into the lies and appears incapable of real understanding.
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I have changed my mind on green beans, same sex marriage, unions, prisoners right to vote, some green energy, NASA, showtunes and immigration over he last 3-4 years. What have you changed your mind on? You cannot handle that I have a different conclusion than you do. (oh I will just do it for you no need to respond Dude, Robb is an idiot who believes in jebus and the sky daddy and like to eat Glenn Becks shit.) |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:24:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
But then they go on to say this "Survival of human society nevertheless seems likely to require the imposition of direct population control measures beyond family planning in most LDC's." |
Yeah, like encouraging "attitude changes and counteracting the effects of pronatalist traditions," as in the second sentence after the one you quote out of context.
Quote-mining, Robb, is a blatant form of lying. The fact that you're doing it so shamelessly to promote a Fox News political agenda whose goal is to do nothing more than slander a man is simply disgusting. Do Holdren and his co-authors owe you money or something? Why are you trying so hard to twist their plain meaning into something sinister? Is all this effort really going to help you attain some goal of yours?
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I put the text up there for everyone to read and comment on so context could be evaluated, how am I a liar. Why didn't you include the sentence between the one I quoted and the one you quoted Dave? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:36:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I put the text up there for everyone to read and comment on so context could be evaluated, how am I a liar. |
Because you aren't evaluating the context, you're now tossing out single sentences and effectively claiming that Holdren is a monster because of them.
Again, what personal problem do you have with the guy that you feel compelled to smear him?| Why didn't you include the sentence between the one I quoted and the one you quoted Dave? |
What, the sentence that says that there are no guarantees? I would have thought that was both obvious and irrelevant to the points being made by you and others here. Namely, you are claiming that Holdren advocates forced sterilization and other horrors, when it's obvious that he's doing no such thing. A sentence saying that there are no guarantees that a development-only solution will work quickly enough to avoid the real terrors of overpopulation (which is what you claim Holdren is advocating) supports your claim how, exactly, Robb? Why are you pointing it out? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 19:45:35 [Permalink]
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Robb:
I have changed my mind on green beans, same sex marriage, unions, prisoners right to vote, some green energy, NASA, showtunes and immigration over he last 3-4 years. |
How many times have you changed your mind over the last 30 years? Even if you are correct, and I don't think you are, why do you not give Holden the benefit of the doubt, given when the paper was written and what he has stated in sworn testimony?
The reason we think the kind of stuff you and Fox are suggesting is wingnut is because it is wingnut. You can do better. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 11:12:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Dude
Its sad that you cling to this particular lie Robb. The evidence that proves you wrong is overwhelming.
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Yes, but knowing something is so much more difficult than believing something. Just look at the steps marfknox describes in her effort to learn about Holdron. Glenn Beck wouldn't ask or even expect us to work that hard for what we believe we know. Hell every Beck broadcast includes Glenn sincerely stating that the American people are the smartest people in the world. Isn't that something we should all want to believe from the gut.
Hell, Glenn Beck is an idiot. The last thing he wants is for the American people to do the work necessary to know things. How else could a buffoon like him make 18 million a year. He needs idiot america.
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Yeah, and then any reasonable and rational person (if they had bought into the beck/malkin/limbaugh/orielly line) would have to admit that their data source is intentionally misleading them. They would have to re-examine other claims made by those same sources and in doing so they would see the pattern of deliberate distortion and lies.
I no longer think Robb is capable of admitting his error though. He is too deeply invested into the lies and appears incapable of real understanding.
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I have changed my mind on green beans, same sex marriage, unions, prisoners right to vote, some green energy, NASA, showtunes and immigration over he last 3-4 years. What have you changed your mind on? You cannot handle that I have a different conclusion than you do. (oh I will just do it for you no need to respond Dude, Robb is an idiot who believes in jebus and the sky daddy and like to eat Glenn Becks shit.)
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Yeah, and when you were actually making an effort to base your decision making on actual facts and reality I was defending you here on these boards.
But as soon as that black guy got elected and the wingnuts totally melted down you started buying into their nonsense. You bought into the smear of Van Jones and you have bought into the smears against Holdren. Especially in the case of Holdren you are guilty of simply making shit up and knowingly spreading wingnut lies.
Holdren "advocates" forced abortion in the same way that the author of my text on the organic chemistry of explosives "advocates" explosions. i.e. They don't.
The fact that you cling to this terrible lie in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (including the pages you yourself posted!) is disappointing Robb.
Let me tell you a secret about skeptics. We will shred you if your make unsupported claims, lies, etc. But if you admit error, or demonstrate that we are in error, it will gain you some measure of respect. I realize this is the exact opposite of how conservatard land operates where any admission of error is weakness and must be avoided regardless of consequences.
So please, re-read the stuff you yourself posted. Read the link I put in (and open the links on the page it goes to as well). If you still think Holdren advocates "forced abortion", come back and actually make your case. Give us evidence and argument that supports your claim. (so far you have only made the accusation and provided one bit of evidence that actually contradicts your accusation, you'll have to do better.)
You put together a real case with convincing evidence and I'll write a letter to my reps, senators, and Obama asking for Holdren to be fired. You put together self contradictory crap and I'll stir in some vitriol and splash it back at you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2009 : 19:44:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
But as soon as that black guy got elected and the wingnuts totally melted down you started buying into their nonsense. You bought into the smear of Van Jones and you have bought into the smears against Holdren. Especially in the case of Holdren you are guilty of simply making shit up and knowingly spreading wingnut lies. |
You say that I am making up lies about Holdren yet you just called ma a racist again. Why do you think it's ok to smear and make up lies and about me after accusing me of making up lies about Holdren. I don't get the logic.
Also I will post this again:
You know marfnox and I probably agree on 10% (I bet you call me a liar because the number is not actually 10%) of topics, yet she can disagree with me without getting insulting and childish. Dude, why do you think its ok to insult people you do not agree with? I think its because you do not see value in every life, only life you agree with. Just being human is not enough for you to respect others, they must think like you as well. Do you think that is a fair assessment of you?
We can disagree on topics and I solicite your debate, but why the insults? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2009 : 20:35:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
But as soon as that black guy got elected and the wingnuts totally melted down you started buying into their nonsense. You bought into the smear of Van Jones and you have bought into the smears against Holdren. Especially in the case of Holdren you are guilty of simply making shit up and knowingly spreading wingnut lies. |
You say that I am making up lies about Holdren yet you just called ma a racist again. Why do you think it's ok to smear and make up lies and about me after accusing me of making up lies about Holdren. I don't get the logic.
Also I will post this again:
You know marfnox and I probably agree on 10% (I bet you call me a liar because the number is not actually 10%) of topics, yet she can disagree with me without getting insulting and childish. Dude, why do you think its ok to insult people you do not agree with? I think its because you do not see value in every life, only life you agree with. Just being human is not enough for you to respect others, they must think like you as well. Do you think that is a fair assessment of you?
We can disagree on topics and I solicite your debate, but why the insults?
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Actually I said you are repeating lies about Holdren first, then when you posted the snip from his old book you were making shit up.
Its clear even from the little of his book you yourself posted that he is not advocating "forced abortions". Yet you continue to make that claim. Why the lies Robb?
In order for me to respect you there is only one thing you have to do Robb, respect the evidence. That's it. You can have a different opinion on anything you like and I don't care. But when you contradict established facts (without good reason) and refuse to admit error when its pointed out to you... I have no tolerance or respect for that.
With regard to Holdren you are ignoring all the evidence. You are buying into the deliberate smear campaign against him, and you are repeating the slander and lies. The man has never advocated "forced abortions".
Why the insults? Simple. You are not so stupid that you can't discern lies from reality, yet here you are spreading the lies. I know you aren't bill scott stupid, so there must be some other reason why you have chosen willful ignorance over real knowledge here. Given your melodramatic overreaction to Obama's speech to schoolchildren, especially considering that the content was available weeks prior, a bit of closet racism seems like a reasonable conclusion. I mean, you aren't so stupid that you really thought Obama was going to deliver some political recruitment speech to your kids, are you?
Now, back to Holdren. You need to go back over the text you posted and the link I provided.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 03:06:49 [Permalink]
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This might be a little off topic (so sue me) but I'd like to remark that sooner or later we will have to control our population. The Theory of Evolution predicts that if we do not, and we probably won't, Nature will do it for us. Natural History tells us that Nature's solutions for this sort of thing tend to be ugly in the extreme.
Just sayin'.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 08:37:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I put the text up there for everyone to read and comment on so context could be evaluated |
Everyone (now also including me) who's been commented on that text and its context seem to agree that he's not advocating forced sterilizations. That is, everyone but you. My conclusion is that either "all of us" collective have a reading comprehension problem, or you have, Robb.
Me, I'm satisfied by ascribing the discrepancy to Morton's Demon on Robb's part. 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 15:30:47 [Permalink]
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Bill Dembski lashed out at Holdren with much the same crap as Robb, only worse (of course). The best part is this:Scientists are not our masters. They are our servants, and they need a lesson in humility. It is up to us -- We the People -- to hold their feet to the fire. To fail to do so is to be complicit in their sins. God help us to preserve what freedoms we have left. The next time anyone calls Dembski a scientist, tell them that Billy-boy considers himself to not be one. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Obama Speech to Schoolchildren
