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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2009 : 13:10:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Maverick
I heard on one of BBC's radio channels reporting about this, and one mother was apparently very upset about Obama indoctrinating the kids. They didn't ask what's so horrible about promoting education, and why it is ok for Reagan to speak to school kids about tax cuts.
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Heh, and what school kids was Ronnie speaking too, hmm?
Riiiight! 
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Yeah, maybe that's what made it ok. And perhaps maybe times were different back then and it was just one of those things the presidents did? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 12:21:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
ROBB!
Where are you man?
I need you to help me understand. Explain to me how bad the brainwashing of your children was!
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Dude, your the one implying I thought my children would be brainwashed, I never said that. If I had thought that I would not have let them watch it. All I wanted was for the speech to be released prior to my children watching it. Ok now, you can paint me as a racist as you surely will. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 14:16:29 [Permalink]
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Robb, what conclusion am I supposed to reach? Just go back and read this thread~!
You were pissed that Obama was going to speak to your children. Upset that the president of your country was going to deliver a video speech to kids in school. The content of that speech was available online for several weeks prior to the actual speech. The transcript of the speech was made available days prior.
Yet you were still angry/scared enough that you stated you weren't letting your kids watch it withut you being there!
So really, tell me what was so bad. Or tell me that your faux outrage was all for nothing and you were wrong to be upset/scared.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 19:48:56 [Permalink]
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| Just noticed - happy 40th birthday, Dude! |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 08:13:22 [Permalink]
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Thanks!
Looks like I survived to 40+1day. Not even all that hung over.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 09:43:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Robb, what conclusion am I supposed to reach? Just go back and read this thread~!
You were pissed that Obama was going to speak to your children. Upset that the president of your country was going to deliver a video speech to kids in school. The content of that speech was available online for several weeks prior to the actual speech. The transcript of the speech was made available days prior.
Yet you were still angry/scared enough that you stated you weren't letting your kids watch it withut you being there!
So really, tell me what was so bad. Or tell me that your faux outrage was all for nothing and you were wrong to be upset/scared.
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Dude, You always use the same tactics, you claim I was pissed, upset and scared and claimed that I said these things in the thread hoping nobody will go back and read what I actually said. You never really want to understand others viewpoints, you only get off on insulting anybody you can and then insult them again for not responding to your unreasonable posts. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 12:43:37 [Permalink]
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Ok Robb.
In the OP you said:
| I am also wondering why he couln't do this in the evening when parents can watch with the kids. We will see what he says. |
How is that you demonstrating anything other than fear/anxiety about the president of your country speaking to your kids? The general outline and content of his speech was available online well before you posted that as well, but you chose not to even look.
Then you said:
| All I want is a transcipt of the speech beforehand. Is that too much to ask? I said that I have no problem with him giving a citizen type speech, I would just like to be sure that's what it is. |
Again refusing to even look at the website where the departnemt of education had posted the general content of the speech, and refusing to take them at their word.
| I am not freaking out. All I want is a transcript beforehand. I know everything my school teaches my children, why should this be different? |
Now you raise the stakes with a lie. No parent has ever reviewed every lesson plan of every class their children take. Lying to try and make people think you are concerned.
Then you elevate your "concern" to true "concern troll" level:
No. But I do look at the books in the classroom, talk to friends that have older children, talk to the teacher about lesson plans, review my childrens homework, ask them about what they learned and my wife helps the teacher's during the day a couple times a week among other things.
All I am doing is being a responsible parent, making sure they are getting a good education. I plan on letting my kids watch the speech if the school airs it during the day. I think it is a good idea as long as he stays away from political issues. If he does, great. But the President has been shown to be a liar like most politicians.
Also recruiting children is nothing new:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/kidshome |
OHHH NOES! HE MIGHT RECRUIT MY CHILDRENS!
Recruit them for what, exactly, Robb?
Then, when pressed, your resort back to this:
| All I want is to know what he is going to say. Why am I some kind of wing nut for that? He's the "transparent president" right? |
You just want to know! No matter that the content of the speech was available for weeks before you developed your "concern".
And then you let your real crazy out for a few:
Also, why would I trust a man that appointed a communist, 911 truther, racist as the White House Green Jobs Advisor (Van Jones)and the White House Science and Technology Advisor talks about forced abortions and forced sterilizations and 18 more "czars that are accountable to nobody except President Obama and some just as radical as these two. These "czars" are not vetted or approved by the congress because they never would be. Why would you want your child lectured to by a man like this?
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Nooooo, can't let the president force your children to have abortions! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
So seriously, you are the one who said your children could be "recruited", exposed to people who want to have "forced abortions", and a bunch of other insane wingnut shit Robb. Its right there in your own writing.
So one more time, were your children "recruited" or forced to have an abortion? Or was the speech exactly what the department of education website said it would be weeks before you came in here with a bad case of the crazy?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 19:00:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Ok Robb.
In the OP you said:
| I am also wondering why he couln't do this in the evening when parents can watch with the kids. We will see what he says. |
How is that you demonstrating anything other than fear/anxiety about the president of your country speaking to your kids? The general outline and content of his speech was available online well before you posted that as well, but you chose not to even look.
Then you said:
| All I want is a transcipt of the speech beforehand. Is that too much to ask? I said that I have no problem with him giving a citizen type speech, I would just like to be sure that's what it is. |
Again refusing to even look at the website where the departnemt of education had posted the general content of the speech, and refusing to take them at their word.
| I am not freaking out. All I want is a transcript beforehand. I know everything my school teaches my children, why should this be different? |
Now you raise the stakes with a lie. No parent has ever reviewed every lesson plan of every class their children take. Lying to try and make people think you are concerned.
Then you elevate your "concern" to true "concern troll" level:
No. But I do look at the books in the classroom, talk to friends that have older children, talk to the teacher about lesson plans, review my childrens homework, ask them about what they learned and my wife helps the teacher's during the day a couple times a week among other things.
All I am doing is being a responsible parent, making sure they are getting a good education. I plan on letting my kids watch the speech if the school airs it during the day. I think it is a good idea as long as he stays away from political issues. If he does, great. But the President has been shown to be a liar like most politicians.
Also recruiting children is nothing new:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/kidshome |
OHHH NOES! HE MIGHT RECRUIT MY CHILDRENS!
Recruit them for what, exactly, Robb?
Then, when pressed, your resort back to this:
| All I want is to know what he is going to say. Why am I some kind of wing nut for that? He's the "transparent president" right? |
You just want to know! No matter that the content of the speech was available for weeks before you developed your "concern".
And then you let your real crazy out for a few:
Also, why would I trust a man that appointed a communist, 911 truther, racist as the White House Green Jobs Advisor (Van Jones)and the White House Science and Technology Advisor talks about forced abortions and forced sterilizations and 18 more "czars that are accountable to nobody except President Obama and some just as radical as these two. These "czars" are not vetted or approved by the congress because they never would be. Why would you want your child lectured to by a man like this?
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Nooooo, can't let the president force your children to have abortions! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
So seriously, you are the one who said your children could be "recruited", exposed to people who want to have "forced abortions", and a bunch of other insane wingnut shit Robb. Its right there in your own writing.
So one more time, were your children "recruited" or forced to have an abortion? Or was the speech exactly what the department of education website said it would be weeks before you came in here with a bad case of the crazy?
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Your right Dude, you got me. Good Job!
Edited to add:
Dude, your argumets would be much more persuasive if you cut out the insults and theatrics. Just a little advice. Why do you need to insult people to get your points across? I think that is a question you should ponder. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 11/10/2009 19:30:05 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 22:58:49 [Permalink]
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So your kids were brainwashed and forced to have an abortion after watching Obama's speech? Interesting.
| Dude, your argumets would be much more persuasive if you cut out the insults and theatrics. Just a little advice. Why do you need to insult people to get your points across? I think that is a question you should ponder. |
Robb, if reasonable, rational debate worked on people who make the accusations you have made in this thread, there would be no people like you to make such accusations.
Like, for example, the guy you accuse of "talking about forced abortions", John Holdren. The man is a distinguished scientist. He wrote some on population and overpopulation in which he examined the problem and the ethics of many different proposed solutions. His writing has been intentionally taken out of context by the fucking assholes who you seem to think are solid sources of information Robb.
Click here for a little understanting. After you read, you should man up and retract the lies you have repeated about John Holdren.
Then, when you realize you are not just wrong, but horribly, terribly wrong, about this guy maybe a seed of doubt about the other nonsense you have heard from the wingnuts about Obama's people will creep into your head.
I doubt you will bother though. You seem to have slipped off the deep end, jumped the shark, and are heading full steam into insano-land with Glen "fucking retard" Beck.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 01:01:51 [Permalink]
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What I've been noticing, especially of late, Robb, is that you have been absorbing and repeating many crude and infamous lies told by the Religious Right and people like Limbaugh and FOX News. No, you didn't intentionally invent those lies, and yes, you probably believe them.
But anyone who is not willing to take time to investigate wild statements, yet has time to repeat them, is indistinguishable from a liar himself. Robb, I think you're too smart (and thought you were too honest) to be repeating the crap you've been indoctrinated with. If you willfully remain ignorant of the very fact that you are passing along second-hand lies, how are you better than those who dreamed them up in the first place?
Don't bitch at Dude for being "mean" enough to call you on the lies you repeat. At least he fairly investigates issues, and is being (brutally) honest. You should thank him for not patronizing you. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/11/2009 01:04:01 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 12:42:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Like, for example, the guy you accuse of "talking about forced abortions", John Holdren. The man is a distinguished scientist. He wrote some on population and overpopulation in which he examined the problem and the ethics of many different proposed solutions. His writing has been intentionally taken out of context by the fucking assholes who you seem to think are solid sources of information Robb.
Click here for a little understanting. After you read, you should man up and retract the lies you have repeated about John Holdren.
Then, when you realize you are not just wrong, but horribly, terribly wrong, about this guy maybe a seed of doubt about the other nonsense you have heard from the wingnuts about Obama's people will creep into your head.
I doubt you will bother though. You seem to have slipped off the deep end, jumped the shark, and are heading full steam into insano-land with Glen "fucking retard" Beck. |
Make your own judgement. Holdren and his co-authors does seem to be advocating forced abortions, taking away babies from single mothers, involuntary sterilizing humans.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 13:05:22 [Permalink]
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I looked up "Ecoscience" co-authored by Holdron up on Amazon, and the first thing which struck me was that it was an out of print, academic text. That usually means a work didn't have much impact and is obsolete.
Next thing which struck me was this: Amazon.com always notifies a user what books were purchased by people who also looked at a book. All of those were books by conservative media pundits such as Glen Beck, not books on similar academic subjects. Next I did some Google searches for the book, and even though academics, intellectuals, and liberals tend to dominate the Internet in general, the only reference I could find to the book were from conservatives making the same claims you are making about this book being proof that Holdren advocates forced abortions and sterilizations.
So then I look up info on Holdren himself. Seems that his appointment included a Senate hearing. Here is his statement to the Senate: http://commerce.senate.gov/public/_files/JohnHoldrenSenatetestimony_21009.pdf His priorities over and over again are in investing in new technologies which will both boost the economy by encouraging private investments, creation of jobs, and in some cases protect the environment. During the question and answer session which followed, Holdren was asked about his writings from 30 years ago. He stated unequivocally that he does not believe that government should have a role in determining optimal population size and that he has never endorsed forced sterilization. Holdren’s appointment was unanimously approved by a Senate Committee.
Since he said in his Senate hearing that he never advocated those extreme policies, I looked further into the book "Ecoscience". Now I’m not going to order a very expensive, over 1000-page, out of print and sorely outdated academic treatise just for the sake of these discussions. But I did manage to find something written by someone who did get their hands on it: http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/07/hold-of-holdren-again/ From that article:
“However, to describe these measures is different from advocating them. And in fact, the Ehrlichs and Holdren concluded by arguing that noncoercive measures were what they suppported: ‘A far better choice, in our view, is to expand the use of milder methods of influencing family size preferences’ —such as birth control and access to abortions. In fairness, their text does read as dated today, ripe for quote mining. They were writing in very different times thirty years ago; but even if they were defending these positions then (and they weren’t), that hardly means that they do today.”
In my further web research, it seems both Holdren and the other authors of “Ecoscience” have contemporarily stated several times in interviews that the book was exploring even the most extreme possibilities and describing them, but not advocating them.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 11/11/2009 13:06:54 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 13:51:33 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
Make your own judgement. Holdren and his co-authors does seem to be advocating forced abortions, taking away babies from single mothers, involuntary sterilizing humans.
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You need to get all the data Robb. Your cherrypicked passages are part of a book that describes a dozen proposed solutions, and the ethics associated with them, to population management.
The fact that you have chosen to remain willfully ignorant on this topic comes as no surprise to me. I have zero patience or tolerance left for this kind of bullshit from you rightwingnut assholes.
Holdren's book, if you could remove your mouth from Glen Beck's shit dispensing orifice long enough to actually read up on the subject, does not advocate any coercive measures. Period.
In fact, the only thing they do advocate is non-coercive policy.
I thought you christians were supposed to value honesty and truth Robb? Do you teach your children the same kind of half-truth/distortion techniques too? Turning those little people into good liars for jebus are you?
Its sad that you cling to this particular lie Robb. The evidence that proves you wrong is overwhelming.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 14:03:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Make your own judgement. Holdren and his co-authors does seem to be advocating forced abortions, taking away babies from single mothers, involuntary sterilizing humans. |
Yeah, sure, Robb, their advocacy is exactly why they wrote this:Compulsory control of family size is an unpalatable idea, but the alternatives may be much more horrifying. As those alternatives become clearer to an increasing number of people in the 1980s, they may begin demanding such control. A far better choice, in our view, is to expand the milder methods of influencing family size preferences, while redoubling efforts to ensure that the means of birth control, including abortion and sterilization, are accessible to every human being on Earth within the shortest possible time. If effective action is taken promptly against population growth, perhaps the need for the more extreme involuntary or repressive measures can be averted in most countries. [My bold.] In other words, Robb, your conclusion that Holdren advocates these horrors is flatly and unambiguously contradicted by the reference you offer in support of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 14:26:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Its sad that you cling to this particular lie Robb. The evidence that proves you wrong is overwhelming.
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Yes, but knowing something is so much more difficult than believing something. Just look at the steps marfknox describes in her effort to learn about Holdron. Glenn Beck wouldn't ask or even expect us to work that hard for what we believe we know. Hell every Beck broadcast includes Glenn sincerely stating that the American people are the smartest people in the world. Isn't that something we should all want to believe from the gut. 
Hell, Glenn Beck is an idiot. The last thing he wants is for the American people to do the work necessary to know things. How else could a buffoon like him make 18 million a year. He needs idiot america. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Obama Speech to Schoolchildren
