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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 22:17:58 [Permalink]
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In the field of herpetology, anytime it's PZ's educated guess going up against Filthy's experienced guess, I'll bet on Filthy. Myers is a learned man, but this is not his field. He may have no understanding, as Filthy does, that herps never read that book that said, "Never eat anything bigger than your head."
Honestly, Bill you are grasping at straws to glorify your own ignorance with every informal exchange of speculation between the huge number of people who understand nature much better than you do.
They'll figure it out, you know. Somewhere in China, likely, is a biologist (probably an atheist!) who cut the thing up and wrote up a little paper. Scientists everywhere will be able to read that paper and draw their own conclusions, rather than stick to their initial speculations. Science works great! The Bible says a snake talked!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/20/2009 22:20:44 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2009 : 22:25:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Satire is not lying and you know that. It is satire. |
Huh-uh! Satire is lying. In the form of fiction, sometimes disguised as fact. For a "higher" effect, appropriate or not. Satire is a damned lie, and I should know.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 23:31:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
None of your ramblings change the fact that the great PZ declared that this was a snake leg and then dreamt up some wild story about how the snake leg, that was not really a snake leg, may have appeared. |
Except you're entirely wrong about this part, Bill. PZ didn't "dream up" anything. He was simply using this photo as a teaching moment and saying "If this does turn out to be a snake with legs rather than a meal gone bad, then this is the most likely reason the snake developed this leg based on totally confirmed and undisputed tests performed on previous legged snakes.
You want to pretend that PZ's whole point unravels if this turns out not to be a legged snake. But the number of confirmed legged snakes actually makes the genuineness of this particular find totally irrelevant. Why don't you try opening your eyes and learning something some time instead of just looking for an excuse to dismiss it all away. You really are only ignorant by choice, Bill. You have no other excuses.
| He then insists that the only way anybody is going to convince him that this is not a snake leg is through an autopsy. If PZ is so confident, yet so wrong, about the snake leg why should we trust him on other issues where he rambles on and on with great confidence? |
A) Because most of us here are already educated enough to know that finding a snake with legs, while rare, is nowhere near the level of impossibility you seem to think it is, and therefore the exact nature of this particular photo is of little interest, since it was merely used as a jumping off point for the discussion of the phenomenon as a whole.
B) And as Dave said, because we never treat PZ as infallible to begin with, so seeing him get it wrong sometimes isn't a world-shaking event. The beauty of science is that it doesn't depend on the credibility of the men performing it. It depends on the verifiability of their results. And the evolution of snakes is one of those subjects with so much diverse and robust evidence supporting it that we can know that it's true without having to simply take PZ's word for it.
But when all you have is someone's "word," credibility or reputation to go on, like with the Gospels, then you're right. Such an error should lead us to question everything that person said as potentially fallible. The standard is even higher if you want to claim someone is a god.
Now, we know from the Bible that Jesus spoke of a literal Adam and Eve. He thought they were real people. He certainly made no mention of evolving from pond scum. So if evolution is true, then Jesus was just flat-out wrong. And if he was wrong about even one thing, then he wasn't perfect and he certainly wasn't one third of an all-knowing triune god.
So I can see why you're so obsessed with this issue, Bill. It's because your entire worldview teeters on this one fact of reality. If evolution is true, then Jesus wasn't the son of god, and then everything you've ever been told about the Glory of Heaven waiting for you after this life is as worthless as sand. Your life will have been a joke. A wasted existence of empty ritual to the distant memory of a long dead and utterly non-magical human being. Just another corpse along with the rest of us. I can see why you'd be in denial. What's your reason for thinking that it's the scientists from all cultures around the world which are lying again?
| As skeptics we should not. |
No, as skeptics we should be able to tell when we should and when we should not. That's the problem, Bill. You're too stupid for nuance. You either think or want to pretend that people are either 100% trustworthy or 100% unreliable. But the world just doesn't work that way, and wise men never expect it to. That's why they insist on empirical evidence--because someone's word is never good enough. It's also why smart people don't believe in magic just because it was written in some dusty book.
| We all just learned a valuable lesson here. Besides PZ being a blowhard, he really don't know that much about snakes. |
No. PZ knows a good deal about snakes. But I think we learned a little more about the denial you exist in, Bill, and how it keeps you from seeing the evidence in front of your face. You're a good lesson, in that respect. A perfect example of how not to think like a skeptic all wrapped up in one neat little delusional package.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/20/2009 23:41:42 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2009 : 03:44:27 [Permalink]
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Wow! I briefly break a hiatus and look what happens. Can't turn my back for a minute, can I?
Y'know what, I would love to be wrong on this (unlikely). Indeed, there is little a skeptic loves better than to be wrong. If we're right all the time, we're not learning anything are we, and by the very nature of skepticism, we are an inquisitive folk.
It it possible that PZ, not being an herpetologist has little more than book stuff to go by on snakes. Hell, it's possible that he is afraid of them, although I rather doubt that.
PZ is very good at what he does -- a professor of biology. But not knowing serpents in a specialized way, he regarded it as possibly a genetic mistake, which happen all the time as represented by various freaks which make the news now & again. He simply chose to err on the side of his own speciality, and provide a brief teaching moment on his blog while he was at it. Well done!, says I.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 05:06:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
How can this happen? Genes are pleiotropic ?they tend to have lots of different functions. The genes involved in making a limb are also expressed in other places; for instance, the Hox genes that specify identity along the length of the body are also reused in specifying identity along the length of the limb. What that means is that when the snake evolved limblessness, it didn't do so by simply throwing away a collection of leg genes ?it couldn't, not without also destroying genes that functioned in generating its body plan. Instead, it evolved genes or modified the regulation of genes to actively suppress limb development?ut the genes to build a limb are still in the genome, and still functional, and still actively working in other ways.
What most likely happened here is that some environmental agent suppressed the suppressor, allowing the old developmental program for a limb to be re-expressed. The retention of such programs is, of course, evidence that this animal evolved from limbed ancestors. |
Here he rambles on about how he believes the leg may have appeared completely oblivious to the fact that his conclusion that it is a snake leg is completely wrong.
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Bill would you open your mind to the possibility that PZ also considers this a teaching moment and since he is a teacher it is what he does. And "most likely" is not the language of dogmatic certainty, as has already been pointed out to you. Which apparently does not register since dogmatic certainty is probably all you know. So try to remember not everyone is incapable of changing their minds. PZ gave an explanation for how this snake leg might naturally occur and some one else gave a different explanation for how this might naturally occur. And then the further research by way of disection was suggested. Right in line with what he does and what I would expect. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 05:38:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
B) And as Dave said, because we never treat PZ as infallible to begin with... |
An extra irony being that Bill isn't the one who alerted us to PZ's being "wrong," it was all those people on PZ's own blog, whom Bill suggests take PZ's words as Gospel.
They weren't newbies to PZ's blog, either, but instead long-time readers, some of whom were so prolific and well-respected that they had won "Order of the Molly." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 12:00:27 [Permalink]
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Unless someone is interested in the species of the lizard, a dissection is not necessary. All one has to do is give the lizard limb a little movement and observe the snake's skin surrounding it. Why am I the only one to realize this? Really, it's too simple.
I'm looking forward to an update that I think might not be forthcoming.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 13:20:47 [Permalink]
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Couldn't the snake's skin have scarified around the lizard's leg, making the juncture harder to see?
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 14:15:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Couldn't the snake's skin have scarified around the lizard's leg, making the juncture harder to see?
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I wouldn't think so. Judging by the profile of the snake's last meal, I think the wound is pretty fresh; perhaps even earlier that same day. Digestion is the most energetic thing a snake does and the profile would have been much smaller within a day or so and gone in just a few.
I'd think that a raging infection would be more likely, making the wound obvious. This is not apparent in the photograph, although there appears to be a severe swelling at the point of the lizard's leg.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 14:24:00 [Permalink]
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All of that does make sense.
Also, I second Ricky 'this is ridiculous' statement. I mean, I know about Bill's moronic statements, but this one is particularly retarded, and you should never go full retard. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 15:17:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
I was here responding to verlch's rants, I've read Dave's 10+ thread discussion with Mozina on whether or not the sun is an iron ball, and I've even on occasion visited Fundies Say the Darnedest Things.
But this is ridiculous.
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The thing that truly catapults Bill's denialism into the realm of the absurd is that he genuinely thinks he's making a persuasive argument. But his hand-waving is so unimpressive and his objections so unreasonable that he just ends up looking like more of a deluded imbecile. Dave has his number pegged--all Bill is capable of is projecting his own failings and insecurities onto others. His childish whines have the form and structure of the type of emotional preaching he finds persuasive, but which is the sort of empty rhetoric that actual skeptics are able to see straight through. The man just doesn't understand science, logic, reason, or critical thinking on any level. I doubt he comprehends just how foolish he really appears.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 17:47:43 [Permalink]
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You all need to come to grips with the fact that St. PZ is a blabber mouth.
| Look at the interesting snake found in China ?it's got a leg. |
He claims the snake has a leg. Not, might have a leg, or could have a leg. He says, and I quote, it's got a leg.
He nexts rambles on about how he thinks the leg might have got there, trouble is that it is not what PZ thinks it is.
| How can this happen? Genes are pleiotropic ?they tend to have lots of different functions. The genes involved in making a limb are also expressed in other places; for instance, the Hox genes that specify identity along the length of the body are also reused in specifying identity along the length of the limb. What that means is that when the snake evolved limblessness, it didn't do so by simply throwing away a collection of leg genes ?it couldn't, not without also destroying genes that functioned in generating its body plan. Instead, it evolved genes or modified the regulation of genes to actively suppress limb development?ut the genes to build a limb are still in the genome, and still functional, and still actively working in other ways. |
Nice story. To bad PZ was wrong.
| What most likely happened here is that some environmental agent suppressed the suppressor, allowing the old developmental program for a limb to be re-expressed. The retention of such programs is, of course, evidence that this animal evolved from limbed ancestors. |
More speculation on how but not if.
| It would be interesting to know what triggered this change. It's not likely to be genetic (the asymmetry suggests that), but is probably a consequence of some pollutants that disrupt development. It's not a good sign, anyway. |
Here PZ blames global warming and Fox News for the snake leg.
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Some good suggestions from the comments: it may not even be a teratogenic deformity. It could just be a poor lizard that punched a claw through the abdominal wall as it was being digested, and the snake was briefly trundling about in pain from the injury. |
A side note from PZ: After rambling off some loony explanation the truth is he acknowledges he may be completely wrong and so therefore his windbag explanation for the leg is nothing but a dream. PZ the dreamer.
| We need to do a dissection! |
So St. PZ has set himself up a pretty nice gig. If this is a leg evolved by the snake PZ continues to be praised as the great PZ and then some. If he is wrong, which he was, then the great PZ offered us a wonderful learning opportunity. Oh brother. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2009 : 18:37:51 [Permalink]
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Bill:
If this is a leg evolved by the snake PZ continues to be praised as the great PZ and then some. |
Is that what you think he was suggesting?
Oh my... This is far worse than I thought. Honestly Bill. You should just not go near any discussion having anything to do with science. It's not safe for you. You really are that clueless.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 19:43:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
You all need to come to grips with the fact that St. PZ is a blabber mouth. |
And you need to come to grips with the fact that the snake's got a leg.| He claims the snake has a leg. Not, might have a leg, or could have a leg. He says, and I quote, it's got a leg. |
That's because it does have a leg.| He nexts rambles on about how he thinks the leg might have got there, trouble is that it is not what PZ thinks it is. |
Why is that a problem? In science, people create and discard hypotheses all the time. Sure, it's not the pronouncement of dogma that you're used to, Bill, but you'll just have to cope with the fact that not all people are like you.| Nice story. To bad PZ was wrong. |
So where is your evidence that PZ was wrong, Bill?| More speculation on how but not if. |
And others would call it a teachable moment.| Here PZ blames global warming and Fox News for the snake leg. |
I'm getting the strangest sense of deja vu here.| A side note from PZ: After rambling off some loony explanation... |
A loony explanation which we see in nature all the time.| ...the truth is he acknowledges he may be completely wrong and so therefore his windbag explanation for the leg is nothing but a dream. |
Pleiotropy isn't fictional, Bill, but you're too cowardly to even try to discuss it. You can't do anything with regards to pleiotropy except to continue to claim that it is nonsense.| So St. PZ has set himself up a pretty nice gig. If this is a leg evolved by the snake PZ continues to be praised as the great PZ and then some. |
I think Kil was too tame. Because it's obvious to me that you wish, Bill, in your heart of hearts, to be a prophet bringing all sorts of unheard Good News to the people, so that they will praise you and dote on you as a saint. And when that doesn't happen, after so many years of trying so hard, your bitterness overtakes you and you are reduced to mocking your own dreams projected onto other people. People who, of course, would never take notice of you, and so can't hurt you.
I honestly think you need professional help, Bill. What's left of your life is just passing you by as you rant, miserably, here on SFN about injustices you think you've suffered even though the things you choose to complain about don't actually negatively impact you to any great degree. ACORN cost you less than a penny each year. Household changes to combat global warming will save you money. And the snake with a leg? Doesn't affect you one way or another, now does it?
This latest is the worst episode I've ever seen you go through. You're so intensely angry about PZ's success as a teacher that you dress up an effigy of him in a tin-foil halo and wings and then shout, "look, look! The saint is wrong!" But you can't even say why he's wrong, you just blurt out words like "windbag" in ignorance of biology, and/or try to childishly make us choose between PZ and filthy when who's right and who's wrong is actually beside the point.
These are not the actions of a healthy mind, Bill. You need to seriously reconsider where you're headed. Most of all, you need to stop coveting PZ's ass. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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A snake matter for Filthy
