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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2009 : 14:10:04 [Permalink]
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Y'know, the thought just occurred: no one has actually seen a real, honest-to-Quetzalcoatl snake's leg nor will anyone ever. There are none to be had, although there were plenty of them 'way back there in the Upper Cretaceous.
Weird Lizard Fossil Reveals Clues to Snake Evolution, Experts SayScott Norris
for National Geographic News
March 26, 2007
A 95-million-year-old marine lizard with minuscule front legs may shed new light on the evolution of modern reptiles, particularly snakes, scientists have reported.
The fossilized remains of the reptile represent the earliest known example of a lizard evolving toward a limbless state, according to experts who described the new species.
Snake Ancestors Lost Limbs on Land, Study Says (February 11, 2004)
Snakes Evolved on Land, New Fossil Find Suggests (April 19, 2006)
The creature's vestigial, or no longer functional, forelimbs barely protrude from its long, snakelike body.
Although its rear legs were of normal size, researchers said the lizard was probably an eel-like swimmer that spent little time on land.
Michael Caldwell, of the University of Alberta, in Edmonton, led the team that made the discovery. He said the lizard, dubbed Adriosaurus microbrachis or "small-armed Adriosaurus," belongs to the lizard group most closely related to snakes.
Intriguingly, Caldwell noted, the new fossil dates to the same period as fossils of primitive snakes that also retained their hind legs.
"This animal appears to have been aquatic, like the rear-limbed snakes from the Middle East," Caldwell said.
He and Italian paleontologist Allessandro Palci reported the discovery in the March issue of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology.
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Isn't that interesting? Of at least equal interest is that some lizards have given up walking and scuttling as a bad job and 86ed their legs.
| The glass lizards or glass snakes, genus Ophisaurus, (from the Greek 'snake-lizard') are a group of reptiles that resemble snakes, but are actually lizards. Although most species have no legs, their head shape and the fact that they have movable eyelids and external ear openings identify them as lizards. A few species have very small stub-like legs near the rear vent. These animals are also known as Glass Snakes or Jointed Snakes. They reach lengths of up to 4 feet (1.2 m), but approximately two-thirds of this is the tail. Glass lizards feed mainly on insects. |
Evolution rocks, eh?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/23/2009 14:15:01 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2009 : 14:35:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill Scott
Pleiotropy describes the genetic effect of a single gene on multiple phenotypic traits. The underlying mechanism is that the gene codes for a product that is for example used by various cells, or has a signaling function on various targets.
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Bill, when you're quoting Wikipedia verbatim (including spelling errors), you're suppose to attribute your quote, and indicate the source. This is not your understanding on what Pleiotropy is. It's you parroting another source without understanding its meaning.
Busted!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 05:24:16 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Simon |
| Pleiotropy describes the genetic effect of a single gene on multiple phenotypic traits. The underlying mechanism is that the gene codes for a product that is for example used by various cells, or has a signaling function on various targets. |
Very well, now look up "plagiarized"
Because your attribution-less copy/pasting from Wiki-fucking-pedia is just that. |
Dick Tracey, it was never my intent to claim that as my own. I only pasted it to clearly demonstrate that PZ is wrong when he speculates on the mechanism causing the snake's leg. And in fact he is first wrong when he dogmatically claims that there is a mechanism for the snake's leg to begin with. Which makes his ramblings on the mechanism that caused the leg just that, ramblings, and dreams. PZ the dreamer.
This clearly demonstrates that PZ is not interested in true skepticism or science, but rather is more interested in his own dogmatic conclusions that support his philosophy. He concludes that there is a mechanism causing the snake's leg from nothing more then a picture. (He is wrong) And then dreams up some idea of how this mechanism may work. (Wrong again) 0-2. He then posts his rambilings on his blog without even considering that the "mechanisim" causing the snake's leg just might be his hunger.
Yes PZ admits, after already posting his blog, that he may be completely wrong, but what other choice did he have? My point is not that PZ was wrong, twice. But that PZ, a skeptical scientist, was so eager to come to his own dogmatic conclusion, based on nothing but a picture, that he did not even wait to post his blog until he had given all possibilities proper consideration. This is skepticism 101 here and for the great PZ to muck that up is rather alarming. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/25/2009 05:27:27 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 06:55:31 [Permalink]
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Actually Bill, the genetic mechanism to grow the limb is there. Has it not been shown that chickens can grow teeth? I have little doubt that those genes can be activated as well, although the leg(s) would be less than the perfect one we saw in the picture. Or perhaps not. Genetic information being what it is, it could create the skeletal structure as well -- and I don't even pretend to understand the process' involved.
So PZ was only wrong once in that he missed the call on the cause, and really, that's no big deal. I know because it happens to me all the time.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 06:55:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Dick Tracey, it was never my intent to claim that as my own. I only pasted it to clearly demonstrate that PZ is wrong when he speculates on the mechanism causing the snake's leg. |
Except you didn't.| And in fact he is first wrong when he dogmatically claims that there is a mechanism for the snake's leg to begin with. |
Ah, now we're back to good old-fashioned evolution denial.| Which makes his ramblings on the mechanism that caused the leg just that, ramblings, and dreams. PZ the dreamer. |
Bill the ignorant.| This clearly demonstrates that PZ is not interested in true skepticism or science... |
Your own posts demonstrate that you aren't interested in those things, either, by your own defintions.| ...but rather is more interested in his own dogmatic conclusions that support his philosophy. |
So what if he were? It's a blog.| He concludes that there is a mechanism causing the snake's leg from nothing more then a picture. |
Baloney. He knew of the mechanism before he even saw the picture.So you say, but you have yet to provide any evidence.| And then dreams up some idea of how this mechanism may work. |
No, he didn't.Yes, Bill, you are 0 for 2, and then some.| He then posts his rambilings on his blog without even considering that the "mechanisim" causing the snake's leg just might be his hunger. |
So what? He considers it now.| Yes PZ admits, after already posting his blog, that he may be completely wrong, but what other choice did he have? |
He could have acted like so many religious blogs out there, and turned commenting off, deleted comments which disagreed with his, or simply deleted the post entirely.| My point is not that PZ was wrong, twice. |
Yes, it is.| But that PZ, a skeptical scientist, was so eager to come to his own dogmatic conclusion, based on nothing but a picture, that he did not even wait to post his blog until he had given all possibilities proper consideration. |
You hold him to an impossible standard. A standard that you refuse to meet yourself, Bill. This is hypocrisy 101, and clearly demonstrates that your point has nothing to do with good science or good skepticism, and everything to do with your jealousy of PZ.| This is skepticism 101 here... |
No, it's not. It's Billicism 101, which is a transparent ruse. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 07:18:40 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| You hold him to an impossible standard. A standard that you refuse to meet yourself, Bill. This is hypocrisy 101, and clearly demonstrates that your point has nothing to do with good science or good skepticism, |
Asking any well respected scientist and/or skeptic to consider all possibilities before coming to such dogmatic conclusions is hardly an impossible standard to hold. It make take some discipline, but impossible, not even close.
| and everything to do with your jealousy of PZ. |
Now you are coming to dogmatic conclusions. I guess monkey see monkey do. This is why I think PZ is harming his cause by coming to his dogmatic conclusion(s), his followers then emulate his behavior. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 07:22:57 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
| So PZ was only wrong once in that he missed the call on the cause, and really, that's no big deal. I know because it happens to me all the time. |
As I just said, PZ coming to a wrong conclusion here is not my beef with PZ. PZ coming to his wrong conclusion in such dogmatic fashion, however, is. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 07:39:08 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| He concludes that there is a mechanism causing the snake's leg from nothing more then a picture. |
Baloney. He knew of the mechanism before he even saw the picture. |
But the mechanism that he knew of was not the mechanism that caused the leg on the snake in the picture, but rather the leg was from another animal. Therefore him concluding that a mechanism caused the snakes leg, from nothing but a picture, is a dogmatic conclusion. Whether he knew about the mechanism beforehand his irrelevant to the point. If he would not have come to such a dogmatic conclusion to begin with and rather first considered all possibilities before coming to his conclusion than he never would have speculated on any mechanism to begin with. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/25/2009 07:43:41 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 08:00:19 [Permalink]
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Bill, just how fucking retarded are you?
PZ clearly opens the door to other possibilities than a HOX gene not properly regulated. Its right there, on the very same post, you know, the one where he is using the snake's leg as a way to bring up pleitropy. He clearly states that other things could be responsible for the snake's leg.
The only things dogmatic here is you repeatedly embarrassing yourself with denial of reality. I guess that is something you are comfortable with though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 08:33:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Bill, just how fucking retarded are you?
PZ clearly opens the door to other possibilities than a HOX gene not properly regulated. Its right there, on the very same post, you know, the one where he is using the snake's leg as a way to bring up pleitropy. He clearly states that other things could be responsible for the snake's leg.
The only things dogmatic here is you repeatedly embarrassing yourself with denial of reality. I guess that is something you are comfortable with though.
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He posts his blog, without even properly considering all possibilities, and clearly comes to the conclusion that the snake's genetics are reasonable for the snake's leg. Had he not come to this dogmatic conclusion, and rather followed all leads, then he never would have had to, nor would he have, speculated on Pleitropy, or any other mechanism. This clearly demonstrates that PZ is more interested in his own dogmatic conclusions that support his philosophy then he is in the truth. But, this is his blog, so if he wants to be dogmatic then he will be dogmatic.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/25/2009 08:36:01 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 09:19:30 [Permalink]
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Hey Bill. Since you are so against "dogmatic conclusions" why have you not commented on this post? It seems that professional creationists are only allowed dogmatic conclusions and sign an agreement to that effect. Kinda funny, you here talking about scientists with dogmatic conclusions (which you happen to be wrong about) when that's all that your "scientists" are even allowed to have! I see that your conclusion is not open to correction, no matter how many times it's been refuted. Who is being dogmatic in his conclusions? PZ was open to correction. You are not.
I figured you would be silent about the creationist statement of faith. Now that's dogma.
And a demonstration of your hypocrisy... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 09:23:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
| So PZ was only wrong once in that he missed the call on the cause, and really, that's no big deal. I know because it happens to me all the time. |
As I just said, PZ coming to a wrong conclusion here is not my beef with PZ. PZ coming to his wrong conclusion in such dogmatic fashion, however, is.
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Ah, but how do we know that? PZ is primarily a teacher and perhaps he, knowing full well that the snake had a terminal case of outright gluttony, saw a good opportunity and chose instead to hand down a lesson in genetics, leaving the mud, blood and booze of the matter to me and others like me.
Everything PZ wrote is confirmed fact. Everything I wrote is also factual. The only difference is in the probabilities, and neither of us have been dishonest.
You're off the deep end on this'n, Bill.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 09:34:50 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott:
This is why I think PZ is harming his cause by coming to his dogmatic conclusion(s), his followers then emulate his behavior. |
Is that what they were doing when they were suggesting another way the leg could have gotten there?
You know what you are Bill?
Target practice. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 09:36:43 [Permalink]
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I absolutely hate dogma....and I ruse to ever change my mind on that  |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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A snake matter for Filthy
