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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:02:56 [Permalink]
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| PZ was open to correction |
After he had already posted his blog, containing ramblings that were all based on his errant conclusion. And what other option did he have? He could continue to insist that the snake's genetics were somehow the cause of the leg, but that would just prove him to be more dogmatic then he already has. Again, had he just properly checked out all other possibilities, rather then coming to his dogmatic conclusion, he could have avoided all the incorrect speculation in the first place. But since he decided to go rush his dogmatic conclusion all of his speculation was not even close. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/25/2009 10:09:08 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:08:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Ah, but how do we know that? PZ is primarily a teacher and perhaps he, knowing full well that the snake had a terminal case of outright gluttony, saw a good opportunity and chose instead to hand down a lesson in genetics, leaving the mud, blood and booze of the matter to me and others like me. |
Yeah, maybe. Or maybe he was just so anxious to reach his desired conclusion that he did not take the time to consider all other possibilities before rushing his blog to print. That sounds more probable. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:13:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Asking any well respected scientist and/or skeptic to consider all possibilities before coming to such dogmatic conclusions is hardly an impossible standard to hold. |
Asking anyone to consider "all possibilities" is unreasonable because there are millions of possibilities for any particular phenomenon.| It make take some discipline, but impossible, not even close. |
So you're saying that you lack the discipline that you expect other people to have. How is this not hypocrisy?| Now you are coming to dogmatic conclusions. |
Only by your personal definition of "dogmatic," which I do not share. I've got lots of evidence (in the form of your own posts), and despite being handed lots of opportunities to demonstrate that there's something else at work other than my allegedly dogmatic conclusion, you haven't availed yourself of any of them. If your behavior changes, I will revise my opinion (so much for dogmatism). This is the key to skepticism: hold all conclusions tentatively, and change them if new evidence arises.| I guess monkey see monkey do. |
Oh, look who's coming to a dogmatic conclusion by his own standards. Hypocrite.| This is why I think PZ is harming his cause by coming to his dogmatic conclusion(s), his followers then emulate his behavior. |
PZ's behavior as a skeptic and a scientist is top-notch. Your unreasonable standards, personal word definitions and obvious jealousy are not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:17:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
After he had already posted his blog, containing ramblings that were all based on his errant conclusion. |
Containing good biological information that taught some of us things we didn't know even if it might be the wrong in the particular example provided. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:38:26 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott:
And what other option did he have? |
A lot more options than the "creation scientists" who must sign this pledge:
1. The Bible is the written Word of God, and we believe it to be inspired throughout, all of its assertions are historically and scientifically true in all the original autographs. To students of nature, this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of simple historical truths.
You know. The people who supply you with your "facts" about evolution.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:53:07 [Permalink]
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I'll confess that I've mostly followed this thread out of morbid curiosity. I remembered the first articles about the snake, but I just realized I had never actually seen PZ Myer's post about it. Bear in mind, I'm not a regular reader of PZ's blog, and while I enjoy learning a bit of biology, I'm not much interested in his more "confrontational" posts. Having said that, here's how I read it now (paraphrased):
1. "Look at this snake! It's got a leg!" PZ then assumed that pleiotropy was in play, and jumped into a brief, and very interesting description of what this is and how it can occur.
2. Commenters pointed out that it might simply be an ingested lizard which has ruptured through the snake's belly. PZ says, basically, "Oops! Good point! Let's cut it open and find out!"
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid the only thing I see here is someone jumping to a conclusion out of enthusiasm for a very interesting subject, and then cheerfully backing off when his readers helpfully tossed a little cold water on him. Is that it? Honestly, I can't imagine that it ever caused him a moment's grief. He probably just thought, "Dang, maybe it's not a pleiotropic leg, but it's still kind of cool."
What, on earth, is the problem? That he was wrong? That he later corrected the error? Color me confused.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 12:25:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
I'll confess that I've mostly followed this thread out of morbid curiosity. I remembered the first articles about the snake, but I just realized I had never actually seen PZ Myer's post about it. Bear in mind, I'm not a regular reader of PZ's blog, and while I enjoy learning a bit of biology, I'm not much interested in his more "confrontational" posts. Having said that, here's how I read it now (paraphrased):
1. "Look at this snake! It's got a leg!" PZ then assumed that pleiotropy was in play, and jumped into a brief, and very interesting description of what this is and how it can occur.
2. Commenters pointed out that it might simply be an ingested lizard which has ruptured through the snake's belly. PZ says, basically, "Oops! Good point! Let's cut it open and find out!"
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid the only thing I see here is someone jumping to a conclusion out of enthusiasm for a very interesting subject, and then cheerfully backing off when his readers helpfully tossed a little cold water on him. Is that it? Honestly, I can't imagine that it ever caused him a moment's grief. He probably just thought, "Dang, maybe it's not a pleiotropic leg, but it's still kind of cool."
What, on earth, is the problem? That he was wrong? That he later corrected the error? Color me confused.
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Well said! That sums it all up nicly, and this thread has gone from interesting to silly to agonizing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/25/2009 12:26:44 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 13:13:49 [Permalink]
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| Bill sounds like a broken vinyl-record. I'm getting bored. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2009 : 13:49:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Bill sounds like a broken vinyl-record. I'm getting bored.
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Are you, now? Well, we can't have that, can we? So here's something to unbore you; a snake with two (count 'em: 2!) legs!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 06:39:00 [Permalink]
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Wow! The snake evolved two human legs!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 13:02:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Wow! The snake evolved two human legs! |
I wonder if pleiotropy explains the origin of the shorts, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 13:04:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Wow! The snake evolved two human legs! |
I wonder if pleiotropy explains the origin of the shorts, too.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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A snake matter for Filthy
