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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/11/2009 : 09:25:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And all three ignore what the Nobel Committee actually says, in favor of publishing anti-Obama screeds. Paul Street goes so far as to say, "It is said that the Norwegians wanted to..." without quoting even a single word of the Nobel Committee's own announcement, or the purpose of the Peace Prize. |
I'm not sure why you think it's relevant what they said. Did you post what they said? I missed it.
How are these people any different from the right-wingers who are using this event to try to tar and feather the President? |
I don't know. What right-wingers are you talking about? I suppose the left wing of the right wing, the Democrats, would say that we need to give Obama time, that he's trying to clear up all the "mistakes" that Bush made, and that they can slaughter and conquer better than the Republicans, because they have better PR and he deserves the Nobel because he's trying so hard. I suspect the extreme right-wing, the Republicans, would say that we didn't give Bush enough time, and that because it takes a long time to create peace by slaughtering and conquering, and that Obama doesn't deserve the Nobel because he hasn't slaughtered and conquered as well or as much as they did.
But I don't see Street, Cockburn and Zinn railing against many of the other wildly undeserving (by their standards) prior winners.
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Cockburn and Zinn mention the wildly undeserving prior winners.
Why does it matter what the Nobel Committee does? I guess if you have a group that gives away money and awards to encourage destructive endeavours and the world takes them at their own word that they're promoting the opposite, I would think that it would matter. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/11/2009 09:27:06 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 10:02:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm not sure why you think it's relevant what they said. |
Of course it's relevant to any argument that it's a mistake. Or don't the Committee's stated reasons matter?| Did you post what they said? I missed it. |
Mab posted the standards for the award. The article you linked to in the OP contained bits of the press release. Here is the whole thing:The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009 is to be awarded to President Barack Obama for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. The Committee has attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.
Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama's initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.
Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world's attention and given its people hope for a better future. His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population.
For 108 years, the Norwegian Nobel Committee has sought to stimulate precisely that international policy and those attitudes for which Obama is now the world's leading spokesman. The Committee endorses Obama's appeal that "Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges." | I don't know. What right-wingers are you talking about? I suppose the left wing of the right wing, the Democrats, would say that we need to give Obama time, that he's trying to clear up all the "mistakes" that Bush made, and that they can slaughter and conquer better than the Republicans, because they have better PR and he deserves the Nobel because he's trying so hard. I suspect the extreme right-wing, the Republicans, would say that we didn't give Bush enough time, and that because it takes a long time to create peace by slaughtering and conquering, and that Obama doesn't deserve the Nobel because he hasn't slaughtered and conquered as well or as much as they did. |
"I don't know," "I suppose," "I suspect." What the hell, Gorgo? Don't you care what the fuss is actually about? You cared enough to type all this stuff, but it's an entirely empty response.| But I don't see Street, Cockburn and Zinn railing against many of the other wildly undeserving (by their standards) prior winners. |
Cockburn and Zinn mention the wildly undeserving prior winners. |
I used the word "many" because Cockburn and Zinn cherry pick their targets. There are 99 Laureates. But when are these guys going to smear the International Red Cross for working hand-in-hand with the warmongers despite having won a "peace" prize?| Why does it matter what the Nobel Committee does? I guess if you have a group that gives away money and awards to encourage destructive endeavours and the world takes them at their own word that they're promoting the opposite, I would think that it would matter. |
I think the problem is that literacy around the world is pretty low, and we're seeing examples of that lack of reading comprehension in Street, Cockburn and Zinn (among many, many others). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 10:08:47 [Permalink]
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What is your point, Dave? Could you put it succinctly in a couple of sentences? Why do you think I should read what Glenn Beck has to say about it all? Where are these three authors wrong in what they say? Who is saying something right?
Do you think that people on the left have not criticized NGO's for their part in supporting capitalist imperialism?
Please explain what you're trying to say, because I'm missing it completely. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 13:21:05 [Permalink]
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I read a saying (don't know whom to attribute it though)
"Don't let 'Only the Best' become the enemy of 'Good Enough for Now'".
I read it on the Swedish ethanol car forum, in a discussion about continuing driving on fossile fuels until the ultimate replacement arrives to save the entire world. In the meantime exasberating the CO2-problem.
Yassir Arafat was a terrorist for a long time. But he didn't get the peace prize for murdering people. He got the prize for sitting down at the negotiation table and started to work for a peaceful sollution to the conflict. Egyptian president Anwar El Sadat launched more than one war on Israel, yet he too recieved the Peace price after he implicitly recognised Israel as a soverign state and helped create the Camp David Accords in 1978.
Did the Nobel Committee award Arafat for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Did the Nobel Committee award Sadat for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Did the Nobel Committee award Obama for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Is Obama man enough to deliver on his promises?
Is Obama the saviour of mankind? Probably not, but can he make the world a better place, thus proving he was worthy of the Peace Prize? I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Or better yet, we can help encourage him to deliver. If so, we'll have to stop dissing him for being undeserving until he proves the Nobel Comittee wrong.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/11/2009 13:25:44 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 13:27:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I read a saying (don't know whom to attribute it though)
"Don't let 'Only the Best' become the enemy of 'Good Enough for Now'".
I read it on the Swedish ethanol car forum, in a discussion about continuing driving on fossile fuels until the ultimate replacement arrives to save the entire world. In the meantime exasberating the CO2-problem.
Yassir Arafat was a terrorist for a long time. But he didn't get the peace prize for murdering people. He got the prize for sitting down at the negotiation table and started to work for a peaceful sollution to the conflict. Egyptian president Anwar El Sadat launched more than one war on Israel, yet he too recieved the Peace price after he implicitly recognised Israel as a soverign state and helped create the Camp David Accords in 1978.
Did the Nobel Committee award Arafat for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Did the Nobel Committee award Sadat for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Did the Nobel Committee award Obama for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Is Obama man enough to deliver on his promises?
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These are questions that are at the crux of the issue. Let's see if Obama can deliver, while not simply waiting passively in the meantime. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 13:46:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What is your point, Dave? Could you put it succinctly in a couple of sentences?... Please explain what you're trying to say, because I'm missing it completely. |
I've been saying that Street, Cockburn and Zinn criticized awarding the Prize to Obama on grounds that are completely irrelevant to the actual reasons the Prize was awarded, and which are, in fact, irrelevant to the standards for awarding the Prize at all. As such, they appear to be as reactionary and ignorant as the idiots on the far right.| Why do you think I should read what Glenn Beck has to say about it all? |
I don't. I think you should have read what the Nobel Committee had to say about it.| Where are these three authors wrong in what they say? |
I didn't say they were wrong, I said they were irrelevant.| Who is saying something right? |
The Nobel Committee, by default.| Do you think that people on the left have not criticized NGO's for their part in supporting capitalist imperialism? |
I think that the people you think are "on the left" have criticized everyone not as far to the left as them for supporting capitalist imperialism. The question is: did they complain that their Nobel Prizes should be revoked or re-awarded to Chomsky while doing so? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 13:52:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
What is your point, Dave? Could you put it succinctly in a couple of sentences?... Please explain what you're trying to say, because I'm missing it completely. |
I've been saying that Street, Cockburn and Zinn criticized awarding the Prize to Obama on grounds that are completely irrelevant to the actual reasons the Prize was awarded, and which are, in fact, irrelevant to the standards for awarding the Prize at all. |
Why do you think the reasons that you think the prize was awarded is at all relevant? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 13:54:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Let's see if Obama can deliver... |
As far as the Nobel Committee is concerned, he has already delivered, in that people are starting to sit down and talk again instead of simply rattling their sabers at one another. As with other Laureates before Obama, the Prize was awarded for what he's already done, and what the Committee hopes he will do in the future, "promises" being irrelevant. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 14:02:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Why do you think the reasons that you think the prize was awarded is at all relevant? |
My perception of reality is relevant to this discussion, because I am participant in it.
But what you seem to be really telling me is that Street, Cockburn and Zinn have inside intelligence that the Nobel Committee awards Peace Prizes in order to continue Western imperialism, in spite of what they plainly say their standards and reasons are? Wait, of course they do, simply by dint of the Committee failing to be as far left as they are. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 14:03:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Did the Nobel Committee award Arafat for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Did the Nobel Committee award Sadat for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
Did the Nobel Committee award Obama for his acts of terrorism or his diplomatic efforts?
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Terrorism. And they rewarded Mother Teresa for her scam.
Is Obama man enough to deliver on his promises?
Is Obama the saviour of mankind? Probably not, but can he make the world a better place, thus proving he was worthy of the Peace Prize? I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Or better yet, we can help encourage him to deliver. If so, we'll have to stop dissing him for being undeserving until he proves the Nobel Comittee wrong.
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They just allowed him his excuses for not delivering what little he promised, and he hasn't promised much. What does negotiation with Iran mean when the U.S. and Israel's position is bullying and lies? What does peace mean when war for no good reason is excused? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 14:04:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Why do you think the reasons that you think the prize was awarded is at all relevant? |
My perception of reality is relevant to this discussion, because I am participant in it.
But what you seem to be really telling me is that Street, Cockburn and Zinn have inside intelligence that the Nobel Committee awards Peace Prizes in order to continue Western imperialism, in spite of what they plainly say their standards and reasons are? Wait, of course they do, simply by dint of the Committee failing to be as far left as they are.
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I'm saying that what people say is sometimes different than what they do. What the peace committee says is irrelevant if what they do is the opposite.
Their intentions may be wholesome, no on is saying they're not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/11/2009 14:06:44 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 14:12:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm saying that what people say is sometimes different than what they do. What the peace committee says is irrelevant if what they do is the opposite. |
Okay, let's see an analysis of all 99 Peace Prize Laureates. I find it hard to believe that Linus Pauling was a part of a scheme to continue Western Imperialism with his campaign to end nuclear weapon testing.| Their intentions may be wholesome, no on is saying they're not. |
Then the real question is: what have been the results of handing out the Prizes? Did giving Peaces Prizes to the U.N., Jimmy Carter, the Red Cross (and all the rest) do more harm than good to the cause of international peace? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 15:02:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I find it hard to believe that Linus Pauling was a part of a scheme to continue Western Imperialism with his campaign to end nuclear weapon testing |
You're right, I did introduce the word 'conspiracy' because of this. Is the "scheme" to continue Western Imperialism that you dreamed up not a conspiracy? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2009 07:10:45 |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 16:40:11 [Permalink]
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| Personally, I would rather the Peace Prize committee waited until Obama had shown by his actions that he was working toward peace and a world free of nuclear weapons. I would agree with Zinn, if only on the fact that Obama has so far continued the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
| Edited by - podcat on 10/11/2009 16:53:51 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 17:35:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Dave W.
I find it hard to believe that Linus Pauling was a part of a scheme to continue Western Imperialism with his campaign to end nuclear weapon testing |
See, this kind of off the wall stuff is where you lose me. |
It's not "off the wall" at all if Street's, Cockburn's, Zinn's and your premise is that the Peace Prize is given to those who exemplify the continuation and expansion of capitalistic imperialism. Linus Pauling appears to be a counter-example to that hypothesis, and if he is it means that analysis is required in which we somehow measure whether each Laureate fulfills it or not, and then see (by simple majority, perhaps?) if the ultra-leftists are correct or not. Do you have a problem with this sort of basic hypothesis testing of political "truths?"| Why do you see conspiracies everywhere? |
What sort of conspiracy do you think I see? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Nobel Prize and Obama
