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hoviariel
New Member
20 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2009 : 13:33:27
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Today I googled "is hell everlasting" and I actually came up with a site that intellectually and logically proved tha there is no hell. Well, not prove, but it did show that the existence of a hell is inconsistent with the benevolent God of Christians. Although there is a lot of the author's own religious point of view, most of the article is about disproving a Chirstian hell
http://tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html
It's actually refreshing to hear about nice Christians who aren't all fire-and-brimstone-preaching fundies
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Edited by - hoviariel on 11/25/2009 06:18:41
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 16:12:15 [Permalink]
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Hoviariel.....
Thank you for the article. I found it very interesting. Mr. Amirault sounds very much like a typical deluded fundamentalist Christian who is taking a first, tentative step on the long road back to rationality.
What astounds me is that Amirault can be remarkably sensible and logical, and actually make an excellent case for what is arguably the most preposterously insane proposition in all of Christian theology ---- the doctrine that all non-Christians go to "hell" ----while still maintaining a belief in all the rest of the idiotic bullshit that is presented as a religion of love and "salvation"!
It's my sincere hope that Amirault persuades a few Christian crazies to reconsider the concept of "hell". Then perhaps he could undergo a little more self-examination and start to work on destroying the concept of "god"! |
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hoviariel
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 06:22:39 [Permalink]
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What astounded me was that this test was suitable for fundies since their doubletalk and roundabout ways of defending their viewpoints doesn't work with the test. If every fundie read this then Fundementalism and the belief in eternal damnation will finally end.
BTW, bngbuck, what did you mean by the rest of the idiotic bullshit that is presented as a religion of love and "salvation", what is there in Christianiy that's as ugly as hell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 07:20:18 [Permalink]
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If I might be permitted....
The original Hell was Gehenna, a sort of garbage dump where the bodies of dead animals and criminals, amongst other bits of unwanted debris, were cast. It was always burning and eventually became the Abrahamic religion's version of Hell, even though there was no evil fairy to preside over it.
Initially, the valley this smoldering midden was in was a place of for idolatrous Jews to worship Moloch, so the whole place was in disrepute from the get-go. Interesting, no?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/25/2009 07:23:15 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 09:09:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hoviariel
What astounded me was that this test was suitable for fundies since their doubletalk and roundabout ways of defending their viewpoints doesn't work with the test. If every fundie read this then Fundementalism and the belief in eternal damnation will finally end.
BTW, bngbuck, what did you mean by the rest of the idiotic bullshit that is presented as a religion of love and "salvation", what is there in Christianiy that's as ugly as hell
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If reason and logic worked on religious people, there would be no religious people.
And if you are unaware of the "ugly" in the christian religion, perhaps you should actually read a bible.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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hoviariel
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 09:59:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by hoviariel
What astounded me was that this test was suitable for fundies since their doubletalk and roundabout ways of defending their viewpoints doesn't work with the test. If every fundie read this then Fundementalism and the belief in eternal damnation will finally end.
BTW, bngbuck, what did you mean by the rest of the idiotic bullshit that is presented as a religion of love and "salvation", what is there in Christianiy that's as ugly as hell
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If reason and logic worked on religious people, there would be no religious people.
And if you are unaware of the "ugly" in the christian religion, perhaps you should actually read a bible.
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Hmm, you have a point. But what do you mean by the ugly? Are you talking about the Old Testement or the New. If it's the old then yes it's very ugly and full of dogmatism, bloodthirst, and God-sanctioned war. But the New is mostly good. There's equla treatment of women, love, sacrifice and peace, except for the last few books. |
| Edited by - hoviariel on 11/25/2009 10:01:15 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:19:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hoviariel
Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by hoviariel
What astounded me was that this test was suitable for fundies since their doubletalk and roundabout ways of defending their viewpoints doesn't work with the test. If every fundie read this then Fundementalism and the belief in eternal damnation will finally end.
BTW, bngbuck, what did you mean by the rest of the idiotic bullshit that is presented as a religion of love and "salvation", what is there in Christianiy that's as ugly as hell
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If reason and logic worked on religious people, there would be no religious people.
And if you are unaware of the "ugly" in the christian religion, perhaps you should actually read a bible.
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Hmm, you have a point. But what do you mean by the ugly? Are you talking about the Old Testement or the New. If it's the old then yes it's very ugly and full of dogmatism, bloodthirst, and God-sanctioned war. But the New is mostly good. There's equla treatment of women, love, sacrifice and peace, except for the last few books.
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This is only partially true. Jesus said (paraphrasing) that he had not come to deny the laws and the prophets, but to fulfill them. Therefore he supported OT law and all of the myth. He also said to the effect that you must hate your parents if you were to be his follower.
Also: Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword."
And in due course, at the very end of the Bible, you come across the hallucinogenic ravings of St. John the Revelator. I'd love to know what that cat was smokin'. 
Once you learn to deal with the archaic and rather cumbersome writing style, the Bible becomes a fascinating read. Excellent stories and baffling contradictions.
Many if not most of us here here have read the Bible cover to cover, some more than once. I figger: how can one be a non-believer without knowing what "they" believe?
Here's a very good link on the bible for a skeptic.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:59:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hoviariel
Are you talking about the Old Testement or the New. If it's the old then yes it's very ugly and full of dogmatism, bloodthirst, and God-sanctioned war. But the New is mostly good. |
You do realize that Yahweh is the same guy in both, right? It's the central dogma of Christianity that Jesus' death was needed to sate the blood-thirst of his sky daddy (or himself, depending on your view of the trinity).
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 15:15:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hoviariel
If it's the old then yes it's very ugly and full of dogmatism, bloodthirst, and God-sanctioned war. But the New is mostly good. There's equla treatment of women, love, sacrifice and peace... |
Nevermind the riot at the Temple, the extortion for salvation, the pointless killing of trees, the brutal murder of a Jew, etc., etc.. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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hoviariel
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 10:47:48 [Permalink]
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| True. But Jesus didn't say to hate people but to love God more. And the riot symbolized the sin of commerializing religon. Most of the other cases of the hebrew's genocides is true though |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 11:40:36 [Permalink]
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| "benevolent God of Christians", What? Where? What bible do you read? You or your bible seems to have omitted a lot of the one I checked out! SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 12:17:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hoviariel
And the riot symbolized the sin of commerializing religon. |
No, the moneychangers symbolized that. Jesus flogging them and causing a riot is obviously a metaphor for how we're supposed to behave towards sinners: violently, and without mercy.| Most of the other cases of the hebrew's genocides is true though |
So what? We're not talking about which Testament is worse, we're talking about how the New Testament includes a lot of rather brutish behavior on the part of a supposedly perfect deity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 14:00:13 [Permalink]
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What must be understood is that the entire Bible depends upon "miracles" and the belief therein. In the OT, only God performed these, usually, but not always, to the detriment of some populace or person, or other. In the NT, Jesus did them with abandon, usually, if not always, to the benefit of someone -- pretty good politician, that J.C. However, if we "take away the impossible, what remains must be the truth." And so, we suddenly stumble over the tired, old faith vs. reason argument, and whether or not the NT is more benevolent than the OT becomes merely a talking point and therefore moot. Both texts become largely fiction to rational thought.
On the other hand, the faithful accept these gross violations of the Laws of Physics with nary a quibble. To question would be to show a lack of faith (Heresy, even Apostasy) and, back in the day, could get the questioner stoned to death. In some places today, it still can, albeit by fundie Muslims -- to the envious dismay of some of our more rabid Christians who evidently wish a return to the good ol' days prior to the European Renaissance.
Unless the story is cut from the whole cloth, fiction, every "miracle" has a rational explanation. In a near-fatal car crash, it is the rescue crews that deserve the credit, not God.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/26/2009 14:03:41 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 00:41:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
If I might be permitted....
The original Hell was Gehenna, a sort of garbage dump where the bodies of dead animals and criminals, amongst other bits of unwanted debris, were cast. It was always burning and eventually became the Abrahamic religion's version of Hell, even though there was no evil fairy to preside over it.
Initially, the valley this smoldering midden was in was a place of for idolatrous Jews to worship Moloch, so the whole place was in disrepute from the get-go. Interesting, no?
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I did not know that the real-world model for Hell was just a disgusting public dump site in Jerusalem. How utterly bizarre! And to think that billions of Christians all over the world have worried for thousands of years about ending up there.
So the Christian model of the afterlife is for people either to mindlessly and forever sing hosannas to God, or to be dumped in a valley in Jerusalem and burned as refuse. (Hindus are more into recycling.)
I appreciate the tip, Fil! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 03:27:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by filthy
If I might be permitted....
The original Hell was Gehenna, a sort of garbage dump where the bodies of dead animals and criminals, amongst other bits of unwanted debris, were cast. It was always burning and eventually became the Abrahamic religion's version of Hell, even though there was no evil fairy to preside over it.
Initially, the valley this smoldering midden was in was a place of for idolatrous Jews to worship Moloch, so the whole place was in disrepute from the get-go. Interesting, no?
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I did not know that the real-world model for Hell was just a disgusting public dump site in Jerusalem. How utterly bizarre! And to think that billions of Christians all over the world have worried for thousands of years about ending up there.
So the Christian model of the afterlife is for people either to mindlessly and forever sing hosannas to God, or to be dumped in a valley in Jerusalem and burned as refuse. (Hindus are more into recycling.)
I appreciate the tip, Fil!
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Oddly enough, I first heard of that in the '70s, from a brace of Jehovah's Witness' that my ex let into the house before I had a chance to escape. They had a nice, long, rather pleasant talk, the JWs got some coffee and a pastry and I learned about Gehenna. So we all came away with something. My recollection of the conversation is sketchy, but it turned out that the JWs don't believe in Hell either. Also, they put pencil scribbles in their Bibles.
That's probably a pretty good talking point for a missionary -- no Hell that is, not the scribbles. If there is no after-life torture to fear, Christianity becomes much more attractive.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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IT'S A MIRACLE
