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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2010 : 10:57:16 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| ..and then it was even implied that I was a racist... |
And that was just bizarre. |
So as you see it is not just the atheist-freethought-skeptic that gets tared and feathered based off of straw men and self-created effigies. The atheist-freethought-skeptic can be just as bizarre and can pass on un-founded accusations with the best of them.
| Hey, just because I think you're a delusional fool and you've swallowed far too many of the lies you've been told doesn't mean that I think that you should have to put up with every single bit of abuse that's flung your way. |
At least you could see that others who were using tactics of smears and untruths were the same ones who chide others for using tactics of smears and untruths.
| If you had made fun of anyone else's charity work, then bngbuck's out-of-the-blue question (and the dog-pile after) would have made some sort of contextual sense. |
But why rely on contextual sense? That takes all of the fun out of it when your calling someone a racist or challenging their love and compassion for their fellow man. It is much easier to tear down a straw man or make racist accusations by ignoring context, or by making up your own.
| But no, you just parroted some crap about Danny Glover, while ignoring repeated requests that you present some details about how gay marriage is not in the best interest of society. |
I did not ignore it. I told you I would re-visit that thread later but right now I was interested in the heath bill and Mass. Senate battle and that I did not have enough time to devout to SFN to be involved in both threads at the same time. I then also got side tracked into this one. Again, have some patience. The context of my reply clearly stated that I will revisit the thread. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 11:15:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse |
| This is the reason I responded. It sounded alomst as if Bill didn't expect atheists to be charitable. |
I never said any such thing.
| From Bill's point of view I'm atheist, and it bugs the hell out of me that he's insinuating that we can't be charitable. |
I never insinuated any such thing. |
Re-checking previous posts in the thread, I realise that your "What is your atheistic contribution" is a response to provocation from bngbuck, and not a statement of moral superiority.
The escalation came from a perceived injury on my part that was uncalled for.
I stand corrected, and apologise.
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No biggie. I was only slightly offended at first, as I chalked up bngbuck's stupid comments to him just being bngbuck, but then I was accused of being a racist without any foundation to back up the accusation. I thought that was un-cool as I am anything but... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 12:23:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So as you see it is not just the atheist-freethought-skeptic that gets tared and feathered based off of straw men and self-created effigies. The atheist-freethought-skeptic can be just as bizarre and can pass on un-founded accusations with the best of them. |
I don't recall ever claiming otherwise. The difference is that it's a very rare thing to see theists calling their brothers on the baloney they spew (and when they do, it typically results in a schism instead of a discussion), while skeptics do that to other skeptics all the time (since the truth is more important to us than some false-front of unity).| I did not ignore it. I told you I would re-visit that thread later but right now I was interested in the heath bill and Mass. Senate battle and that I did not have enough time to devout to SFN to be involved in both threads at the same time. I then also got side tracked into this one. Again, have some patience. The context of my reply clearly stated that I will revisit the thread. |
Well, I have to admit that I missed this reply, written nine days after you started the gay-marriage topic. Was there an earlier reply to any of the other four reminders I gave you? You made a bunch of other posts and replies in those nine days, none of them asking me to wait, so I'm sure you can see how it looked like you were trying to ignore the issue. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 13:20:45 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I don't recall ever claiming otherwise. The difference is that it's a very rare thing to see theists calling their brothers on the baloney they spew (and when they do, it typically results in a schism instead of a discussion), while skeptics do that to other skeptics all the time (since the truth is more important to us than some false-front of unity). |
See, to me, your explanation is as arrogant and baseless as Bucks. I fully accept the fact that some atheists are more charitable then theists. Some theists are tight-wads, no doubt about it. But some theists are very very generous with their time and their treasure as well. So rather then tie someone to a label based on a true, or maybe un-true, stereotype, I try and judge the individual on their own merit and leave the stereotypes out of it. The conclusion I have come to is that some theists are very charitable with their talent and treasure while some are not. I have found the same to be true with atheists. For me to say that theists are more charitable then atheists, period, would go against my own conclusions. So I was a bit confused and surprised that just after you got done chiding Buck for accusing him of challenging me to a "who has the biggest penis" childish game that you pretty much do the same thing by saying that "atheists have a bigger penis then theists" because you claim "the truth is more important to us". You say this right after several of your members smear my name with accusations of racism and a general lack of love and compassion for our fellow man. There was no truth to the accusation whatsoever, but that seemed to be of little importance to your members. So after I was smeared with untruths by your members you can see how laughable I find your blanket statement that atheists "find the truth more important" then theists. It sure don't seem all that important to these atheists here on this forum, which makes your blanket statement of atheists believing that "truth is more important" then theists do, untrue as well.
| Well, I have to admit that I missed this reply, written nine days after you started the gay-marriage topic. Was there an earlier reply to any of the other four reminders I gave you? You made a bunch of other posts and replies in those nine days, none of them asking me to wait, so I'm sure you can see how it looked like you were trying to ignore the issue. |
Don't worry I am not ignoring the thread, I started it.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2010 : 13:42:52 [Permalink]
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The Loquacious Stick Insect strikes back!
Ann Coulter is jealous of the attention Rush Limbaugh has been getting since making his comment about the Obama administration wanting to exploit the Haitian tragedy to "burnish" his credentials with the black community.
So she's making a conscious effort to out-controversy the controversial radio host, and on Fox News on Sunday, she didn't make much effort to keep that a secret.
"Stop asking about Rush's statement. I made some controversial statements this week too," Coulter said on Geraldo at Large.
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I'm sure she did, and like those semi-coherent slobberings of The Pig, they were of small value and then only to the more easily impressed of the sheep.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 13:54:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
The Loquacious Stick Insect strikes back!
Ann Coulter is jealous of the attention Rush Limbaugh has been getting since making his comment about the Obama administration wanting to exploit the Haitian tragedy to "burnish" his credentials with the black community.
So she's making a conscious effort to out-controversy the controversial radio host, and on Fox News on Sunday, she didn't make much effort to keep that a secret.
"Stop asking about Rush's statement. I made some controversial statements this week too," Coulter said on Geraldo at Large.
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I'm sure she did, and like those semi-coherent slobberings of The Pig, they were of small value and then only to the more easily impressed of the sheep.
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She is a joke. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 13:58:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It sure don't seem all that important to these atheists here on this forum, which makes your blanket statement of atheists believing that "truth is more important" then theists do, untrue as well. |
I would expect no more from a person who thinks that local weather is some sort of indicator of global climate. You ignore the forest and focus on the trees on a regular basis, Bill. You speak of a couple of bad acts by a couple people as if they somehow magically falsify the generalization. "Truth is more important to us" doesn't mean "we never make mistakes."
And this time, you were the provocateur. So tuck it away, big boy, your failed analogy is showing. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 14:41:45 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I would expect no more from a person who thinks that local weather is some sort of indicator of global climate. |
Not true and regardless it has nothing at all to do with this conversation, except for maybe to distract from it.
| You ignore the forest and focus on the trees on a regular basis, Bill. You speak of a couple of bad acts by a couple people as if they somehow magically falsify the generalization. |
Hahahahaha. I just got done lecturing you on how you can't judge a person in their personal giving to charity simply by applying the atheist or theist title to them. Each person should be evaluated on their own merit. When this is applied you will see that we have generous atheists and theists among us just as we have tight-wad atheists and theists among us. You don't even acknowledge this point but rather ramble on about some blanket statement of yours that says atheist "find the truth more important" then theists, period. You say this after some of your most prolific members smear and trash my name with wild and unfounded accusations about me that they refuse to back up. You made the blanket statement not me, therefore whipping your meat out for all to see. And right after you chided your own people for such childish games you go boasting about how big the atheist's package is compared to the theist's The truth is your members debunked your blanket statement for me.
| "Truth is more important to us" doesn't mean "we never make mistakes." |
There was no context to make a mistake. I never said the Haitian relief was a waste, I never said I would not or have not gave and I never mentioned anything about not giving money to "a dark stranger" even in a crises such as the quake. Yet I was accused of racism and no love for our fellow man anyway. I guess the truth to those claims was not all that important to those who made the accusations. If so they would have come out and acknowledged this and offered an apology for the baseless accusations.
Dr. Mab did and he was the only one.
| And this time, you were the provocateur. |
I fully acknowledged that we have generous atheists and theist and tight-wad atheists and tight-wad theists. You make unfounded blanket statements like atheist think "truth is more important" then do theists and then claim I am the provocateur. You are so full of BS.
| So tuck it away, big boy, your failed analogy is showing. |
It is rather self-evident that the truth is not all that important to you. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 15:14:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
You don't even acknowledge this point... |
I thought I was making that point several posts ago. Did I need to acknowledge it again?...but rather ramble on about some blanket statement of yours that says atheist "find the truth more important" then theists, period. You say this after some of your most prolific members smear and trash my name with wild and unfounded accusations about me that they refuse to back up.
You made the blanket statement not me, therefore whipping your meat out for all to see. |
I said it in response to your out-of-the-blue statements about "atheist-freethought-skeptics," so now you're acting just like bngbuck, conveniently forgetting or ignoring what you said in order to smear me.| And right after you chided your own people for such childish games you go boasting about how big the atheist's package is compared to the theist's |
You brought the shrinkage of the atheist package up, not me. It seemed utterly bizarre for you to do so, but I wanted to see where you wanted to roll with it. Into smear tactics, apparently. bngbuck has taught you well.| The truth is your members debunked your blanket statement for me. |
You still don't get it, do you? To debunk the "more important" claim requires much more than a couple of bad acts.| There was no context to make a mistake. I never said the Haitian relief was a waste, I never said I would not or have not gave and I never mentioned anything about not giving money to "a dark stranger" even in a crises such as the quake. Yet I was accused of racism and no love for our fellow man anyway. |
You don't think those were mistakes?| I guess the truth to those claims was not all that important to those who made the accusations. |
Forest/trees again.If so they would have come out and acknowledged this and offered an apology for the baseless accusations.
Dr. Mab did and he was the only one. |
Ah, you'll keep me waiting for more than nine days, but expect others to hie to you in under two? Hypocrite.| I fully acknowledged that we have generous atheists and theist and tight-wad atheists and tight-wad theists. You make unfounded blanket statements like atheist think "truth is more important" then do theists and then claim I am the provocateur. You are so full of BS. |
Only if you ignore what you said. Besides that, I said that truth is more important to skeptics. Not all atheists are skeptics. Many of them are no more skeptical than the average theist. You're the one painting with the broad brush, here, not I.| It is rather self-evident that the truth is not all that important to you. |
At least I'm paying attention to what you're writing, which is more than I can say about you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 17:30:50 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| since the truth is more important to us |
Let us review:
1. bngbuck is boasting that he (the Atheist) has out given me (the Christian) in charitable giving. You chide him for such claims and boasting that have nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand or with the theist/atheist debate. I agreed.
2. You then claim, in regards to theists, that the truth is more important to skeptics. Yet this is a more boastful claim, and more subjective, then the bngbuck’s claim by far.
You see, when push comes to shove, bngbuck and myself could start busting out tax records, receipts etc… and come to a definitive conclusion on who in fact gave more as a whole and as a percentage of income, while a meaningless point in the theist/atheist debate, bngbuck could find out if he has out given Bill the Christian or not.
Your claim is that skeptic’s value truth as more important then theist’s do. A much more subjective claim to prove indeed as one can hold truth to the utmost degree of importance and still believe in that which is not true. So your claim, while equally irrelevant to the theist/atheist debate, is much more subjective of a claim then bngbuck claiming that he has out given me in charitable giving. People, including skeptics, can have deep convictions and still be deeply wrong.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/18/2010 17:38:54 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 17:43:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| But never mind. It's clear you don't give to dark strangers, even when a catastrophe like the Haitian quake hits. |
I would like you to fill me in on how you came to this conclusion. I have yet to reveal any of my contributions or charitable works to you, yet you believe that your qualified to claim that I am racist simply because I have yet to answer if I have given to your self-approved Haitian relief .org yet. If I provide you proof that I have sponsored a child from Zimbabwe for the last 5 years and have been sponsoring other children through the same .org for the past 10 years will you take back your ridicules accusation? |
My sincere apologies, Bill. I had no evidence or reason to imply you were racist. That implication crossed the line, and I'm sorry I made it. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 18:24:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Bill scott
| But never mind. It's clear you don't give to dark strangers, even when a catastrophe like the Haitian quake hits. |
I would like you to fill me in on how you came to this conclusion. I have yet to reveal any of my contributions or charitable works to you, yet you believe that your qualified to claim that I am racist simply because I have yet to answer if I have given to your self-approved Haitian relief .org yet. If I provide you proof that I have sponsored a child from Zimbabwe for the last 5 years and have been sponsoring other children through the same .org for the past 10 years will you take back your ridicules accusation? |
My sincere apologies, Bill. I had no evidence or reason to imply you were racist. That implication crossed the line, and I'm sorry I made it.
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Thank you. And I would like to apoligize for some of my comments in reguards to the photoshop stuff. I was out of line at times and would like to apoligize for that. To be honest, even though we disagree on much, I gernerally find you to be likable. For whatever it is worth.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 18:56:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I'm reading that Tiger Woods has gotten up off some 3 mil for Haiti. ... |
That's most excellent. The cynical side of me thinks he's trying to buy his way out of controversy, but I don't care as that amount of money can be most helpful and welcome. If true and the money is going to a competent and reliable charity, then Thank you, Mr. Woods!.
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| Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 01/18/2010 19:01:51 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 19:42:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Let us review:
1. bngbuck is boasting that he (the Atheist) has out given me (the Christian) in charitable giving. You chide him for such claims and boasting that have nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand or with the theist/atheist debate. I agreed.
2. You then claim, in regards to theists, that the truth is more important to skeptics. Yet this is a more boastful claim, and more subjective, then the bngbuck’s claim by far. |
Subjectivity and boastfulness actually had little to do with either.
You were trying to equivocate between theists (yourself, really) and "atheist-freethought-skeptics" on the basis of them both building strawmen and/or making unfounded accusations, for no apparent reason other than to say "nyaah-nyaah, you guys do it, too!" a fact which everybody here already knew. I pointed out that there's still a difference.| Your claim is that skeptic’s value truth as more important then theist’s do. |
We have to, it's all we've got. Nothing else will "save" us, or make this world a better place. It's impossible to progress as a society on a substrate of lies or wishful thinking. Christianity wasn't able to do it, as we can see from history, evidenced by the stagnation of innovation between the rise of the Holy Roman Church and the Renaissance, when scientists finally decided to throw off the yoke of Jesus while doing science.
Neither the big two Commandments nor the older top-ten list place any value on testable truth. In fact, people in the Bible who value truth over faith are rebuked. Besides, Christian apologists have, for a long time, claimed that when God said "neighbors" in the Commandment against lying, He really meant "Israelites," which means it's okay for Christians to lie to non-Christians (go figure the logic there). And since God created a universe in which it is possible to tell or believe lies, He's necessarily the Father of all Falsehoods.| A much more subjective claim to prove indeed as one can hold truth to the utmost degree of importance and still believe in that which is not true. |
People failing to live up to their own standards doesn't make any part of the situation "subjective." I'll grant that it is subjective, but your reasoning is vacuous. However, it's not quite as subjective as you think, since we've got a lot of objective history and many non-subjective philosophical arguments (including the Torah, Bible and Koran) to which we can turn to measure out how much various groups of people value the truth.| So your claim, while equally irrelevant to the theist/atheist debate... |
Then why did you bring it up?| ...is much more subjective of a claim then bngbuck claiming that he has out given me in charitable giving. |
Actually, there are quite a few metrics which would need to be ironed out before any such thing could be decided, since it wasn't only money. There'd be a whole lot of subjective wrangling to go through if the exercise were to be carried out in real life.| People, including skeptics, can have deep convictions and still be deeply wrong. |
Yes, we all knew that before this thread even began. What does it have to do with anything? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2010 : 22:26:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
There was no context to make a mistake. I never said the Haitian relief was a waste, I never said I would not or have not gave and I never mentioned anything about not giving money to "a dark stranger" even in a crises such as the quake. Yet I was accused of racism and no love for our fellow man anyway. I guess the truth to those claims was not all that important to those who made the accusations. If so they would have come out and acknowledged this and offered an apology for the baseless accusations.
Dr. Mab did and he was the only one.
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Let's make something clear here, so that everyone is on the same page.
I never made any accusations of racism. My response was in regards to the percieved injury of Christians being charitable while atheists are not.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Haitian Relief
