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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2010 : 14:44:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
A defense, even a vigorous defense, doesn't imply worship. |
Profuse apologies. Poor choice of words.
So are you saying that even if Congress gave unanimous support to Obama, passing whatever he wanted to become law, he still would be screwing things up for the citizens?
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What are you suggesting that Obama would propose? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 15:38:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What are you suggesting that Obama would propose? |
I have no idea. You're the one who is calling him a thug and a criminal, and suggesting he wouldn't be doing anything different if he weren't forced to offer stupid compromises to appease ideological Congresspeople who are insisting upon maintaining the status quo.
In other words, do you, Gorgo, think that if Obama had the support of the country to do whatever he wanted as President, do you think we would still not be looking at single-payer? Or that nobody would be being prosecuted for the previous administration's crimes? Or that the big financial firms and GM would still exist? (These are just examples.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 03:26:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
In other words, do you, Gorgo, think that if Obama had the support of the country to do whatever he wanted as President, do you think we would still not be looking at single-payer? |
I'm sorry, I don't know what your point is. I have shown that the country wants single-payer universal health care, or better, and that Obama has worked tirelessly against that.
Obama had the support of a large part of the country to do whatever he wanted, although I doubt they knew what that was. He decided to do what he wanted and condone the crimes of past administrations, continue them, and continue to impoverish the people of not only this country, but many others as well, |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 05:39:26 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
| I wasn't talking about voting, I was criticizing an "elected" official. That is still legal in this country, isn't it? |
By whom or where in this forum has it been stated that criticizing an elected official was or should be illegal? Certainly not me!
And if you are referring to Obama, I personally believe that he has made some massive blunders in his first term. Much more of this fucking up, and I could be persuaded that they may not all be blunders of incompetence, but possibly acts of intention.
I am REALLY disappointed in his ineffective and weak promotion of a liberal political agenda, especially health care!
But I do see much of what he has accomplished in 12 months as vastly better than the starting of a war under false pretenses, the killing of hundreds of thousands of people, the torturing of prisoners of war, the denial of global warming, ignoring development of alternative energy sources, outspoken promotion of more oil exploration, the superstitious invoking of God and Christ as reasons and justification for instigating war, and generally establishing policies that caused us to be despised by most of the other nations of the world - in short, the policies of the Cheney/Bush Republican Conservative administration - wildly cheered on by a Republican Congress!
And do you honestly believe that a Republican majority in Congress is no worse than a Democratic majority?| Why would withdrawing be voting for someone? |
Gorgo We are going to elect either Republican or Democratic candidates. Voting for or promoting third parties is idealistic but quixotic and useless.
If you actually believe that the Democratic policies and political positions are equally odious and as unacceptable as the Republican positions on all of the domestic and foreign policy issues, then I guess that, for you, it doesn't make any difference who you vote for or whether or not you vote at all.
That is the position that Dude has taken. He has disenfranchised himself! That'll show those damn Democrats! Let the Republicans really take over all branches of government and turn ownership of the country over to the giant corporations now that SCOTUS has given them the right to buy candidates! I'm a liberal, but I want ultraconservatives to win all the seats in Congress and later the presidency so that I can deliver a message to that damn defeated Obama. Jeezuz!
But if, as I do, you feel the Democrats taken as a whole are even slightly closer to a liberal political position than the Republicans; and you are a liberal; then if you don't vote at all because you are mad at Obama you have failed to cancel a republican vote, which is the same thing as giving the Republicans one more vote.
If large numbers of Democrats don't vote in the 2010 elections because they are mad at Obama for not being liberal enough, then they will assure that the Republicans will take back Congress and we will end up with a lot of stalemate for two years (because of Obama vetoes
of Republican legislation), or if Rethugs get a two-thirds majority we will have a lot of Republican legislation "rammed down our throats".
This legislation will most assuredly not be liberal!
And I most assuredly have not been sucked in to "worshipping" any party or political personage. I was a Republican through the Eisenhower years and felt that he was a damn fine post-war president. I voted for Reagan first term and became disenchanted with his manipulation by big business and power brokers. I became a Democrat.
As the power of corporations overtook the ability of unions to assure decent wages and working conditions to workers I became firmly liberal in my views and, as this was reinforced as the Republicans obviously became the party of big money and then embraced the ridiculous Evangelical Christian notions of anti-abortion and anti-homosexual orientation, I moved ever farther left in my political views.
I would like to see far more true liberals in Congress, the Blue Dogs and Lieberman all drop dead, and Obama to be true to the liberal base that elected him. I worship no politician any more than I worship any god. But the political pendulum has swung way too far to the right since Clinton (who left a prosperous America with a huge budget surplus); we were rapidly heading toward some kind of theocratic facism under Bush/Cheney, and now we have to give Obama and a democratic Congress some time to correct the hideous problems that the Republicans have left us.
Not voting, or voting for non-starting losers like Ralph Nader is not going to help this country. Obama and the true Democrats in Congress leave an awful lot to be desired, but they are surely are a hell of a lot better than the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly - all of whom are revered by Republicans as outspoken champions of the Republican agenda of unbridled corporate growth and greed, religious legislation banning abortion and gay rights, anti-science educational policies, reduction and eventual elimination of gun controls, and persecution of homosexuals.
I completely agree with Dave; if Obama had 100% of Congress passing unchanged any and all of his initiatives quickly back to him for his signature, and then they all became law; would you still call him a "thug" and castigate what he had accomplished?
How about an answer on this, Gorgo?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 08:27:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I completely agree with Dave; if Obama had 100% of Congress passing unchanged any and all of his initiatives quickly back to him for his signature, and then they all became law; would you still call him a "thug" and castigate what he had accomplished?
How about an answer on this, Gorgo?
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I don't call him a thug because of health care. I call him a thug and a murderer because he is, and that is what he has accomplished. I see no reason to think he's pushed single-payer universal health care. He didn't campaign on it, he didn't push it. He the wanted multi-payer mandatory health neglect that his employers asked him for. You're right, that's probably pretty thuggish, but that's not the reason I call him a thug.
He doesn't work for me, he may work for you, but he doesn't work for me. If you continue to support the right-wing Democrats and do not hold them accountable, they will get worse, as they have over the years. Okay, your support isn't mindless worship, but what is it? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/07/2010 08:30:27 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 08:44:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't call him a thug because of health care. I call him a thug and a murderer because he is, and that is what he has accomplished. I see no reason to think he's pushed single-payer universal health care. He didn't campaign on it, he didn't push it. He the wanted multi-payer mandatory health neglect that his employers asked him for. You're right, that's probably pretty thuggish, but that's not the reason I call him a thug.
He doesn't work for me, he may work for you, but he doesn't work for me. If you continue to support the right-wing Democrats and do not hold them accountable, they will get worse, as they have over the years. Okay, your support isn't mindless worship, but what is it?
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I don't think this is correct.
There are currently to scenarios possible in the USA, given that you have the choice between a party that is extreme religious right wing, and center or at least center-right. If liberals do not vote, or vote for independents, what probably happens is that the extreme right wing takes over. If liberals vote for democrats, the frame you are working in will shift to the current center(right).
Meanwhile, while you have the government you have now, there are two tacts to be taken. The first is to oppose current legislation by the means you have in the pipeline, which again will marginalize it, even though it is a shift to the left (or possibly better, a shift to less right-wing). Supporting it, but also criticizing it for not going far enough, will shift the framework in four years to be less right than it is now, after which you can keep working to make it left. It seems to me that in the current environment where Obama is seen as "socialist" by a large part of the population (yes, republicans are still a large part of your population, even if they are not the majority now), small shifts will be necessary before big shifts can be made. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 09:19:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
It seems to me that in the current environment where Obama is seen as "socialist" by a large part of the population (yes, republicans are still a large part of your population, even if they are not the majority now), small shifts will be necessary before big shifts can be made.
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As you said, most people are to the left of Obama on the health care issue. Obama's job is, just like Clinton's was, is to make what the people want seem impossible. He does not work for you and me.
These people skate along knowing that people will support and vote for them no matter what they do or say because they're the better of two evils because their party is named the Democratic Party, not because of what they do.
Bush was an obvious criminal, Obama makes it seem like he means to do right, although he is not so obvious. Which is worse, the obvious or the subtle? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 11:37:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Do you have any suggestions for solving the problems that you see, Gorgo?
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Why do you ask. Do you see a problem? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 13:03:02 [Permalink]
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On Obama's thuggishness. Not the whole story, but some of it.
On being "realistic." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:30:26 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
As you said, most people are to the left of Obama on the health care issue. Obama's job is, just like Clinton's was, is to make what the people want seem impossible. |
So, you are saying that most people in the country are actually progressive and more liberal than Obama?
I don't think so. I wish that were so, but it's not. The reason Obama chose to push for a public option is precisely because the right had already successfully demonized single payer as the dreaded "socialized medicine" right here in the land of the free! Of course, they treated the public option that way too because they are liars and pricks. They got away with it because Obama and the Dems didn't do enough to explain what the public option was to the American people, while the right was unified in presenting it in the most negative terms possible. "The Bolsheviks are coming to kill the seniors!" and all of that crap.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:33:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Why do you ask. Do you see a problem? |
Ah, okay, you say the U.S. is being run by thugs and criminals, but it's not a problem. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:40:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Why do you ask. Do you see a problem? |
Ah, okay, you say the U.S. is being run by thugs and criminals, but it's not a problem.
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I didn't say it was a problem. I asked you if you saw a problem. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:55:21 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, from link:
...and maybe settled with the far-right idea of single-payer universal health care. |
So a single-payer system is a far right system? Why then does the far right hate the idea so? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Where has this Obama been?
