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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:58:24 [Permalink]
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| In fact, if single-payer is a far right system, that makes even the liberal Dems far right. So what does that make the Republicans? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2010 : 17:13:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
In fact, if single-payer is a far right system, that makes even the liberal Dems far right. So what does that make the Republicans?
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What I meant to say is that in a sane world, that would be the far right position. Remember, Ralph Nader is not a socialist. He is a capitalist. In a sane world, socialized medicine would be on the left, and the compromise, which would be single-payer, would be at least the center or even the far spectrum of the reasonable right.
People who call themselvesj Republicans, at least the Republicans that think Bush-Cheney and Palin are reasonable people, are people with severe mental problems. They are not people that should even have a vote in a reasonable society. In a sane world, they would be heavily medicated. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 18:16:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't say it was a problem. I asked you if you saw a problem. |
If thugs and criminals are running the government, then yes, I think that's a problem. But I've been trying to understand your position. If you're going to be evasive, then I guess I can't. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 18:26:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't say it was a problem. I asked you if you saw a problem. |
If thugs and criminals are running the government, then yes, I think that's a problem. But I've been trying to understand your position. If you're going to be evasive, then I guess I can't.
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Well, I'm not trying to be evasive, I'm trying to tell you in some way that you can relate, but if I don't know what your position is, I can't do that. What is your position and why? Was Bush a criminal? Were any of the Presidents thugs? Do you see any problems? What would you do about them? Is Obama a socialist? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 18:53:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, I'm not trying to be evasive, I'm trying to tell you in some way that you can relate, but if I don't know what your position is, I can't do that. What is your position and why? Was Bush a criminal? Were any of the Presidents thugs? Do you see any problems? What would you do about them? Is Obama a socialist? |
Why don't you relate your position in terms of the government that we have now, instead of in comparison to my position on a zillion different issues?
I know you think that the latest crop of presidents have been thugs and criminals, and that we have a "shell of a representative democracy," but I have no clue as to what you think should be done about either (if anything), because every time I ask you a question, you just ask me the same question back. Are you ideas so obscure that you can't begin with our current Constitution, laws and political definitions, but instead have to first find out what I think about them? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 01:05:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, I'm not trying to be evasive, I'm trying to tell you in some way that you can relate, but if I don't know what your position is, I can't do that. What is your position and why? Was Bush a criminal? Were any of the Presidents thugs? Do you see any problems? What would you do about them? Is Obama a socialist? |
Why don't you relate your position in terms of the government that we have now, instead of in comparison to my position on a zillion different issues?
I know you think that the latest crop of presidents have been thugs and criminals, and that we have a "shell of a representative democracy," but I have no clue as to what you think should be done about either (if anything), because every time I ask you a question, you just ask me the same question back. Are you ideas so obscure that you can't begin with our current Constitution, laws and political definitions, but instead have to first find out what I think about them?
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The first and most important solution is to ask you why you don't think there's a problem. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 02:56:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Kil
In fact, if single-payer is a far right system, that makes even the liberal Dems far right. So what does that make the Republicans?
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What I meant to say is that in a sane world, that would be the far right position. Remember, Ralph Nader is not a socialist. He is a capitalist. In a sane world, socialized medicine would be on the left, and the compromise, which would be single-payer, would be at least the center or even the far spectrum of the reasonable right. |
Can you define single payer and socialized medicine for me? As far as I can tell, the the National Health Service of the UK is considered socialized medicine. It is also single-payer. But it cannot be right-center and left at the same time.
What do you mean when you use the terms you do? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 03:00:26 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, from what you've written in this and previous threads, it appears to me that you think all recent (and perhaps all historical) Presidents are "thugs." Is this correct? What Presidents do you not consider to be thugs?
For now, I can only assume that for you, "thug," is a synonym for the office of President of the US.
Please explain your personal definition of thuggery. At first (and second) glance it seems to be a usage too broad to be for any useful discussion. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 03:03:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
The first and most important solution is to ask you why you don't think there's a problem.
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Where has Dave W. stated that he doesn't think there is a problem? As far as I can see he has not made any statements yet on his own position.
Rather, he has been trying to get a grip on your position. More specifically, on what you think people have to do now to fix the things that you think are wrong in the current system. If you think the country is not left-wing enough, how are you going to fix this? If you think the country is very left-wing but the government is not, what should people be doing about it?
How do you think we should go from the current system, which you think is corrupt, to a better system? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 04:37:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Kil
In fact, if single-payer is a far right system, that makes even the liberal Dems far right. So what does that make the Republicans?
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What I meant to say is that in a sane world, that would be the far right position. Remember, Ralph Nader is not a socialist. He is a capitalist. In a sane world, socialized medicine would be on the left, and the compromise, which would be single-payer, would be at least the center or even the far spectrum of the reasonable right. |
Can you define single payer and socialized medicine for me? As far as I can tell, the the National Health Service of the UK is considered socialized medicine. It is also single-payer. But it cannot be right-center and left at the same time.
What do you mean when you use the terms you do?
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Government run health care is different than government run insurance. Does that help? In most places in the U.S., the police are government owned and government run. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 04:41:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
The first and most important solution is to ask you why you don't think there's a problem.
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Where has Dave W. stated that he doesn't think there is a problem? As far as I can see he has not made any statements yet on his own position.
Rather, he has been trying to get a grip on your position. More specifically, on what you think people have to do now to fix the things that you think are wrong in the current system. If you think the country is not left-wing enough, how are you going to fix this? If you think the country is very left-wing but the government is not, what should people be doing about it?
How do you think we should go from the current system, which you think is corrupt, to a better system?
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Like Dave, you see my answers but you don't like them so you respond as as though I haven't answered. The first step to a solution is to talk about it. Do you think there's a problem? Why not? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/08/2010 04:54:38 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 04:52:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Gorgo, from what you've written in this and previous threads, it appears to me that you think all recent (and perhaps all historical) Presidents are "thugs." Is this correct? What Presidents do you not consider to be thugs?
For now, I can only assume that for you, "thug," is a synonym for the office of President of the US.
Please explain your personal definition of thuggery. At first (and second) glance it seems to be a usage too broad to be for any useful discussion.
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I haven't done a study of all of the presidents. What is the term that you think is better for them? I've described some of Obama's actions. What does this make him? A hero? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 05:16:57 [Permalink]
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The real thugs are the Republicans who are trying yet again to privatize SS & dump Medicare. They won't rest until Wall Street gets the biggest cash bonanza the country has to offer -- our donations to Social Security Trust Fund as well as the fund itself.
Representatives Paul Ryan (R-Wis) and Devin Nunes (R-CA) introduce "A Roadmap to America's Future" which advocates the privatization of Social Security.
Funny thing about Republicans. They seem determined to NEVER learn lessons from the past. Which can be the only reason why Rep. Paul Ryan has reintroduced legislation to eliminate Medicare and privatize Social Security--a GOP pet project that spent all the political capital that Bush felt he earned with his re-election. His "Social Security-palooza" tour, designed to drum up populist support, actually had the opposite affect and set the administration back on its heels and backing off--a rare defeat for the destructive neo-con plans of the Bushies.
Say it with me now: THIRD RAIL. Seriously, you nimrods, you don't go after the well-being of Grandma and Grandpa without some serious negative political ramifications, no matter what the lunatic fringe teabagging set says.
Not content to let Ryan & Co. merely self-immolate on this, Representatives John Larson (D-CT) and Linda Sanchez (D-CA) have introduced a resolution clearly stating their opposition to this "roadmap" guaranteed to get Americans lost:
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While I'm quite disappointed in Obama, I still think he's better than anyone else on the presidential horizon, with the possible exception of Hillary.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 06:08:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Like Dave, you see my answers but you don't like them so you respond as as though I haven't answered. |
Well, I've seen you give replies, not answers. On none of the questions Dave asked have you given any straight answers. You can] do that without knowing his view on these issues. But I'll humor you and give you my point of view. Maybe than I'll finally get to hear what you think Obama should have done in the case of the health care bill, and what you think should be done to fix the current system.
| The first step to a solution is to talk about it. |
And then? I mean, talking about it is what I already said quite a few replies ago. Take the current (right wing?) democrats and make sure that they can survive over the current extreme right wing republicans. Shift the frame to the left. If you think the problem is that it is profitable for the current people in congress to be right wing, first make sure that it is unprofitable for them to be extreme right wing, than that it is profitable for them to become less right and in the future more left. Shift the window.
| Do you think there's a problem? Why not? |
I don't know whether there is a problem, I'm not a member of your country. We have our own political problems in the Netherlands and I'm am spending more time on them than on your little squabbles.
From what I see, I think that the way the dialogue is conducted currently in the USA is problematic. A very vocal part of your country has the mindset that socialist = bad and Obama = socialist and this seems to me neither accurate nor constructive.
It also seems to me that even if Obama was a full blown communist, he would have been forced to propose the regulations he has done now because of a combination of this very vocal minority, the stonewalling of house republicans and the lack of leadership and ideas of the house democrats. This combined with governmental procedures that make the passage of laws that extensively change the status quo if not an impossible, at least a Herculean task. In that sense, I don't think Obama could have done much better than he has now, regardless of whether he wanted to or not.
Last, I do disagree with your analysis that Obama did not want a health care bill with a public option. However, it also seems to me that he hasn't got that wide support you say he has. As far as I can see the polls are quite ambivalent on the question on healthcare reform, with many Americans wanting it, but without wanting to pay for it and quite a few thinking healthcare is not a right but a privilege. It seems to me that Obama wanted this to be a bill with bipartisan support, that he wanted this to go through the proper channels. It seems to me that neither he, nor the democrats in both houses were prepared for the maliciousness of the right wing attacks on the bill and the voting behavior of certain democrat senators that will not be named here. I think the current watered down bill you have is due to naivity and incompetence, rather than malice. I very much wanted to see a stronger, more coherent democrat response to the right wing screams about death panels, socialism, baby killing etc etc. But I was in the USA for half a year during the primaries of John Kerry and I also know the democratic party as toothless, spineless and passive bunch, with few rays of hope in getting a coherent message out. I think one of the problems with the democratic party is that it is too diverse with Al Franken one the one hand, who very strongly wants socialized medicine and says so and Joe Lieberman on the other, who is clearly in the pocket of insurance lobbyists. This diversity prevents a strong message from getting out.
And very last, I think the current system of lobbyists in the USA is a big problem and you'd probably be much better of if you secured the buildings they're in, rounded them all up, shot them and subsequently confiscated their assets for the public good. You could probably get rid of your national debt that way. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 06:11:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Government run health care is different than government run insurance. Does that help? In most places in the U.S., the police are government owned and government run.
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Okay, so single-payer would be the government running the insurance and socialized medicine government running the hospitals? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Where has this Obama been?
