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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2010 : 18:09:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't know I was obligated to have any concrete plans. I'm feeling pretty much powerless about it all, but I think the key is to keep talking and agitating and doing what little you can do. Whatever that is. |
Well, this all would have been a lot less frustrating if you'd just said that a couple of days ago. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 00:17:04 [Permalink]
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Gorgo
Paraphrased, I asked, and Dave indirectly asked:If the Congress passed unchanged all of Obama's initiatives, and they went quickly back to him for his signature, and then all of his legislation became law; would you still castigate what he had accomplished? and call him a thug?
How about an answer on this, Gorgo? |
You responded directly to me.....| He doesn't work for me, he may work for you, but he doesn't work for me. If you continue to support the right-wing Democrats and do not hold them accountable, they will get worse, as they have over the years. Okay, your support isn't mindless worship, but what is it? |
.....but none of this answers or addresses the question....| Would you still castigate what he had accomplished? |
How about an answer on this, Gorgo?
Second request for a direct answer! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 01:28:17 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
You have stated that "education is part of the answer"
I asked you, and I quote in full:Specifically, what steps do you feel that citizens could take -- concrete action -- to change the education of children so that they could accept the establishment of a Socialist (NO DEROGATION) third party in future years?
Even prior to that, exactly HOW could the small number of citizens that agree with you today mobilize and act to enable the benefits of Socialism (NO DEROGATION) to be taught in our primary and secondary schools today so as to allow it to become a political reality in the future?
Do you see any method that a public climate of willingness to consider socialized medicine, business, banking -- in short, a basically Socialist form of government -- could be established sooner than the lengthy (and problematic) method of teaching children to accept such concepts when they grow to voting age in the future?
Or are such ideas not practical in the "Democracy" of the U.S. today?
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You replied:Bngbuck, capitalism is a big problem. One dollar one vote isn't just a dumb slogan. It is our system. If we're going to keep our present system, we need to take a look at it and deal with it rather than idealize it and talk about it as though it's perfect. It leaves a lot of people out. Capitalism is war. Capitalism is poverty. Capitalism is two million (or more) people in prison. Capitalism is a lot of good things. You want to keep it? Remember that it's a system that we use to get the best life for the most people that we can, and that it has limitations and deal with those limitations.
We can do health care cheaper. Single-payer universal health care has been proven to be cheaper and better, and it's not that hard a sell. Obama doesn't want to sell it because he doesn't work for us. |
But none of what you replied answers or addresses the questions of how EDUCATION - your answer to what could be done - could be implemented to create a climate accepting Socialism in many manifestations, (healthcare, etc) -- none of your reply is an answer to the questions that I asked.
Would you please explain HOW the US population could be educated to accept a Socialistic form of government? I do not derogate Socialism, I believe it has some merit. I want your ideas on HOW it could be implemented in the US using - as you have stated - education!
And I know full well that Capitalism - entrenched - is a big problem to those that would improve the political atmosphere that it has wrought!
In a small way, I have lived and exemplified the capitalistic ideal most of my life. I have accumulated a modicum of personal wealth in the process! Both that process and my current efforts to share some of the results have been bitterly criticized in this very Forum. The statement I have just made will likely draw fire from the same source! However all of that really has little basis in an objection to Capitalism as an economic and political system!
I am personally well aware of the system's "limitations" as you have put it, as well as its benefits to some of those who have utilized its methodology.
Your merely complaining about its evils and extolling the virtues of other systems is not useful - it is whining. What will work to bring us closer to a Socialistic ideal that transcends the inequities of Capitalism, or a tempering of the reality that money buys power?
Do you have any specific ideas to ameliorate the political problems that arise from a capitalistic ideology framing a representative Democracy? If so, I, for one, would like to hear them! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 01:41:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't know I was obligated to have any concrete plans. I'm feeling pretty much powerless about it all, but I think the key is to keep talking and agitating and doing what little you can do. Whatever that is. |
Well, this all would have been a lot less frustrating if you'd just said that a couple of days ago.
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But I think you're discounting the times I did answer your question. Dialogue is very important.
Pardon me if I've not quite figured you out. I can't tell where you're coming from most of the time. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 02:18:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Gorgo
Paraphrased, I asked, and Dave indirectly asked:[quote]If the Congress passed unchanged all of Obama's initiatives, and they went quickly back to him for his signature, and then all of his legislation became law; would you still castigate what he had accomplished? and call him a thug?
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He is a thug because he has continued Bush's wars and condoned Bush's crimes. Those are his initiatives. He is the leader of a gang that is involved in the attack of at least five countries including Iran. Now he's sent two people that helped to ruin Haiti to Haiti to help. Wonder why I distrust the idea of sending troops (which blocked aid coming in) in again (remember Wilson's brutal occupation?)?
As far as health reform, he didn't campaign on or sell anything other than health care for profit as far as I know. We don't need health care for profit. We need to make sure everyone has proper health care. Single-payer is still health care for profit, but it's a compromise, as it has the potential to lower the bill. Again, this is not socialism, it is a big compromise. This is what other industrialized countries have had for years. This is what people in this country support now.
I don't recall having said a word about promoting socialism. I'm fine with socialism, although it brings its own set of problems, I'm sure. Socialism , to the socialists I know, is the idea that people own and benefit from the means of production. Right now we have the system we have so let's work on what we can. Does that mean implementing some programs bought and paid for by taxes? Probably.
Yes, I'm talking about educating children, but I'm also talking about educating myself and you and Dave. What is being distorted because of the nature of the corporate media, corporate influence on universities, think tanks, yes, even elementary schools?
Someone once suggested that a government-funded media would be better than this. I'm not in a hurry to disagree. With constitutional protections it might work. What's important is that we understand how corporate media distorts and work to counter that by supporting media that works and by criticizing media that doesn't work. Yes, I would support education for all paid in full by the government. Yes, I would support other things supported by taxing people who benefit most from our society.
Most of the power that illegitimate parts of our government have is based on illusion. Obama's organization is a good P.R. organization and you're saying what, that he can't sell the American people on what they already want? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 05:00:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Gorgo, from what you've written in this and previous threads, it appears to me that you think all recent (and perhaps all historical) Presidents are "thugs." Is this correct? What Presidents do you not consider to be thugs?
For now, I can only assume that for you, "thug," is a synonym for the office of President of the US.
Please explain your personal definition of thuggery. At first (and second) glance it seems to be a usage too broad to be for any useful discussion.
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Here's Chomsky on post WWII presidents:
http://www.chomsky.info/talks/1990----.htm
I think Chomsky lets Carter off the hook. Carter escalated the problems in Afghanistan.
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Thanks for one of the replies for which I was waiting. Is Chomsky [duck] your hero? [/duck] He's not mine. I may sometimes agree with what he says, but not this, from your link:| If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. |
Chomsky is more than a little confusing/confused in terminology in stating that, since the "Nuremberg Laws" were the draconian Nazi antisemitic laws passed in 1935, which might conceivably indeed have seen these presidents hanged, but for different reasons. Chomsky presumably meant to refer to the Nuremberg Principles. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 05:10:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Thanks for one of the replies for which I was waiting. Is Chomsky [duck] your hero? [/duck] He's not mine. |
He'll tell you himself, as he has said many times, don't believe him, check it out for yourself. His written work gives many references. He is not perfect and is willing to admit it. Most of the work I find criticizing Chomsky is from people who distort what he has said and done.
I have questioned him on what I thought was an error, that I have seen no one else complain about and he graciously clarified what he meant. People talk about Faurisson and Pol Pot, but they purposely distort what Chomsky actually has said and done.
I may sometimes agree with what he says, but not this, from your link:| If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. |
Also, Chomsky is more than a little confusing/confused in terminology in stating that, since the "Nuremberg Laws" were the draconian Nazi antisemitic laws passed in 1935, which might conceivably indeed have seen these presidents hanged, but for different reasons. Chomsky presumably meant to refer to the Nuremberg Principles.
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This was transcribed from a talk, not a written work so I think he made a mistake. I don't speak for him, but he clarifies what he means here, and I think you'll agree there is no question about what he means. (edited to sound a little better) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/09/2010 11:18:11 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 05:38:15 [Permalink]
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Also, bear in mind, people ought to be pretty critical about the Nuremberg principles. I don't mean to suggest they're some kind of model of probity or anything. For one thing, they were ex post facto. These were determined to be crimes by the victors after they had won. Now, that already raises questions. In the case of the American presidents, they weren't ex post facto. Furthermore, you have to ask yourself what was called a "war crime"? How did they decide what was a war crime at Nuremberg and Tokyo? And the answer is pretty simple. and not very pleasant. There was a criterion. Kind of like an operational criterion. If the enemy had done it and couldn't show that we had done it, then it was a war crime. So like bombing of urban concentrations was not considered a war crime because we had done more of it than the Germans and the Japanese. So that wasn't a war crime. You want to turn Tokyo into rubble? So much rubble you can't even drop an atom bomb there because nobody will see anything if you do, which is the real reason they didn't bomb Tokyo. That's not a war crime because we did it. Bombing Dresden is not a war crime. We did it. German Admiral Gernetz -- when he was brought to trial (he was a submarine commander or something) for sinking merchant vessels or whatever he did -- he called as a defense witness American Admiral Nimitz who testified that the U.S. had done pretty much the same thing, so he was off, he didn't get tried. And in fact if you run through the whole record, it turns out a war crime is any war crime that you can condemn them for but they can't condemn us for. Well, you know, that raises some questions.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 06:12:45 [Permalink]
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Don't like Chomsky, how about Brezinski?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Where has this Obama been?
