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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2010 : 08:58:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
The first and most important solution is to ask you why you don't think there's a problem. |
But I do. I think there are lots of problems, and most of them are probably due to the fact that money generally wins elections, itself probably due to the complacency of the citizenry.
But I don't know how to solve those problems, and I still fail to see how my opinions are relevant to any changes that you would like to see made (which, yes, you still haven't written about). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 09:15:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
Government run health care is different than government run insurance. Does that help? In most places in the U.S., the police are government owned and government run.
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Okay, so single-payer would be the government running the insurance and socialized medicine government running the hospitals?
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Yes. I think when people call single-payer insurance "socialized medicine" they're using the term derisively.
I appreciate your comments in the other post. I don't think Democrats are spineless, I think they're doing their job. That's what they're paid to do, to fake left. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 09:18:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
Government run health care is different than government run insurance. Does that help? In most places in the U.S., the police are government owned and government run.
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Okay, so single-payer would be the government running the insurance and socialized medicine government running the hospitals?
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Yes. I think when people call single-payer insurance "socialized medicine" they're using the term derisively.
I appreciate your comments in the other post. I don't think Democrats are spineless, I think they're doing their job. That's what they're paid to do, to fake left.
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Well great. Can you now finally answer the questions? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 09:21:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
The first and most important solution is to ask you why you don't think there's a problem. |
But I do. I think there are lots of problems, and most of them are probably due to the fact that money generally wins elections, itself probably due to the complacency of the citizenry.
But I don't know how to solve those problems, and I still fail to see how my opinions are relevant to any changes that you would like to see made (which, yes, you still haven't written about).
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My thought is that the complacency of the population is caused by the fact that the media, which includes books and universities, is largely influenced by big money. We are taught that voting and shopping is democracy. So, we buy what we're sold as far as candidates and news, and the rest of our job is to be consumers.
Education is a part of the solution. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 09:28:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
If you think the problem is that it is profitable for the current people in congress to be right wing, first make sure that it is unprofitable for them to be extreme right wing, than that it is profitable for them to become less right and in the future more left. Shift the window.
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Well said. And agreed. Right now, the people have little power. How to get back that power is important. Education is important. Talking about things is important.
From what I see, I think that the way the dialogue is conducted currently in the USA is problematic. A very vocal part of your country has the mindset that socialist = bad and Obama = socialist and this seems to me neither accurate nor constructive.
It also seems to me that even if Obama was a full blown communist, he would have been forced to propose the regulations he has done now because of a combination of this very vocal minority, the stonewalling of house republicans and the lack of leadership and ideas of the house democrats. This combined with governmental procedures that make the passage of laws that extensively change the status quo if not an impossible, at least a Herculean task. In that sense, I don't think Obama could have done much better than he has now, regardless of whether he wanted to or not.
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Also well said, except that Obama could not have been elected if he wanted to do any actual change.
Last, I do disagree with your analysis that Obama did not want a health care bill with a public option. However, it also seems to me that he hasn't got that wide support you say he has. As far as I can see the polls are quite ambivalent on the question on healthcare reform, with many Americans wanting it, but without wanting to pay for it and quite a few thinking healthcare is not a right but a privilege. It seems to me that Obama wanted this to be a bill with bipartisan support, that he wanted this to go through the proper channels. It seems to me that neither he, nor the democrats in both houses were prepared for the maliciousness of the right wing attacks on the bill and the voting behavior of certain democrat senators that will not be named here. I think the current watered down bill you have is due to naivity and incompetence, rather than malice. I very much wanted to see a stronger, more coherent democrat response to the right wing screams about death panels, socialism, baby killing etc etc. But I was in the USA for half a year during the primaries of John Kerry and I also know the democratic party as toothless, spineless and passive bunch, with few rays of hope in getting a coherent message out. I think one of the problems with the democratic party is that it is too diverse with Al Franken one the one hand, who very strongly wants socialized medicine and says so and Joe Lieberman on the other, who is clearly in the pocket of insurance lobbyists. This diversity prevents a strong message from getting out.
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When questions are phrased the right way, as I've shown here, people want this stuff. Obama could have sold it.
And very last, I think the current system of lobbyists in the USA is a big problem and you'd probably be much better of if you secured the buildings they're in, rounded them all up, shot them and subsequently confiscated their assets for the public good. You could probably get rid of your national debt that way.
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Yes. William Greider wrote a book called "Who Will Tell the People" a few years ago. Still true today. This goes into education and media as well. Think tanks, newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., etc.
Solutions? Education. Talking about it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/08/2010 09:29:29 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 09:46:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Gorgo, from what you've written in this and previous threads, it appears to me that you think all recent (and perhaps all historical) Presidents are "thugs." Is this correct? What Presidents do you not consider to be thugs?
For now, I can only assume that for you, "thug," is a synonym for the office of President of the US.
Please explain your personal definition of thuggery. At first (and second) glance it seems to be a usage too broad to be for any useful discussion.
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Here's Chomsky on post WWII presidents:
http://www.chomsky.info/talks/1990----.htm
I think Chomsky lets Carter off the hook. Carter escalated the problems in Afghanistan. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 11:35:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Education is a part of the solution. |
But how? We can't force anyone to get their information from non-tabloid sources, home-schooling is framed as a First Amendment issue, and public-school budgets are always first on the chopping block when times are tough (leading to a negatively reinforcing cycle). How do you educate the people when there's no money to do so, they're not interested, and the thugs and criminals in power would rather keep them uninformed? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 11:45:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But how? We can't force anyone to get their information from non-tabloid sources, home-schooling is framed as a First Amendment issue, and public-school budgets are always first on the chopping block when times are tough (leading to a negatively reinforcing cycle). How do you educate the people when there's no money to do so, they're not interested, and the thugs and criminals in power would rather keep them uninformed?
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Glad you're excited about doing something about it. That's an important step. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/08/2010 11:57:25 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 14:56:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Well said. And agreed. Right now, the people have little power. How to get back that power is important. Education is important. Talking about things is important. |
Yes, it is. But how can you take the steps to a good education and dialogue?
Also well said, except that Obama could not have been elected if he wanted to do any actual change.
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Please explain.
| When questions are phrased the right way, as I've shown here, people want this stuff. Obama could have sold it. |
I'm not so sure about that. To take a different example, a friend of mine has studied in California (I thought). The school system is in third world state over there (according to him). At least, it was about ten years ago when he was there. When he was there two ballot proposals came up in the elections, one to get extra funds to the school system, one to raise taxes to fund the first proposal. The majority voted in favor of the first, against the second and so nothing happened.
I'm quite sure people in America want healthcare reforms. I'm not sure that they want this reform to take the form that was proposed, or that they even have any idea what form they want it to take. It seems to me that for quite a few Americans, healthcare reform is just a buzzword. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 15:30:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Glad you're excited about doing something about it. |
But I'm not. I don't know that anything can be done about it, which is why I was asking you what you think should be done. But you're obviously reluctant to say. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 15:43:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Glad you're excited about doing something about it. |
But I'm not. I don't know that anything can be done about it, which is why I was asking you what you think should be done. But you're obviously reluctant to say.
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I think Gorgo his plan is talking and education. The problem is that both concepts are too vague to be a real plan. I'm not sure Gorgo has thought this through further than some vague concepts. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 16:07:36 [Permalink]
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Gorgo......
| I'm quite sure people in America want healthcare reforms. I'm not sure that they want this reform to take the form that was proposed, or that they even have any idea what form they want it to take. It seems to me that for quite a few Americans, healthcare reform is just a buzzword. |
I understand that you do not agree with our current representative form of government; and that our current democracy doesn't work because the majority of the electorate, irrespective of party, does not agree with your preference for a more socialistic (no derogation) form of government.
Specifically, what steps do you feel that citizens could take -- concrete action -- to change the education of children so that they could accept the establishment of a Socialist (NO DEROGATION) third party in future years?
Even prior to that, exactly HOW could the small number of citizens that agree with you today mobilize and act to enable the benefits of Socialism (NO DEROGATION) to be taught in our primary and secondary schools today so as to allow it to become a political reality in the future?
Do you see any method that a public climate of willingness to consider socialized medicine, business, banking -- in short, a basically Socialist form of government -- could be established sooner than the lengthy (and problematic) method of teaching children to accept such concepts when they grow to voting age in the future?
Or are such ideas not practical in the "Democracy" of the U.S. today? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 16:28:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Glad you're excited about doing something about it. |
But I'm not. I don't know that anything can be done about it, which is why I was asking you what you think should be done. But you're obviously reluctant to say.
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I think Gorgo his plan is talking and education. The problem is that both concepts are too vague to be a real plan. I'm not sure Gorgo has thought this through further than some vague concepts.
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I didn't know I was obligated to have any concrete plans. I'm feeling pretty much powerless about it all, but I think the key is to keep talking and agitating and doing what little you can do. Whatever that is. Most of us don't have the time or resources to do much. I sure don't. That was Greider's point. Lots of people can get together and change something, but then they have to go home and go to work, and corporations hire lobbyists and open think tanks and own newspapers, and they're there everyday doing what they do to grind back whatever the people do. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 17:44:48 [Permalink]
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I was part of a small anti-war group in a small rural area in Ohio. We marched, we had signs. It was a pretty quiet bunch. Professors and doctors and factory workers and whatever. One of the organizers asked me, after the war started if we did any good. I told him that for all we know we may have kept them from turning it into a worse slaughter.
I think a lot of times we don't really understand how much or how little we accomplish. The point is to keep trying.
There are plenty of ideas out there. Ideas are not hard to find.
I think part of what we need is for people to stop saying that things can't be done. I wish everyone that wanted to vote for Nader or Kucinich or Green or Communist or Fascist or whatever would sometimes and stop saying it can't happen. People are too quick to give people like Obama or Bush excuses.
Bngbuck, capitalism is a big problem. One dollar one vote isn't just a dumb slogan. It is our system. If we're going to keep our present system, we need to take a look at it and deal with it rather than idealize it and talk about it as though it's perfect. It leaves a lot of people out. Capitalism is war. Capitalism is poverty. Capitalism is two million (or more) people in prison. Capitalism is a lot of good things. You want to keep it? Remember that it's a system that we use to get the best life for the most people that we can, and that it has limitations and deal with those limitations.
We can do health care cheaper. Single-payer universal health care has been proven to be cheaper and better, and it's not that hard a sell. Obama doesn't want to sell it because he doesn't work for us. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/09/2010 01:38:09 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 17:47:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Please explain.
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These people are vetted before they're put up as candidates at all. See my post with Jeff Cohen talking about the Hamilton Institute. Obama didn't raise so much money from Wall Street because he was going to create change I can believe in.
See Paul Street's book and articles about Obama. Sounds like someone you wouldn't want to know. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/08/2010 17:49:12 |
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Where has this Obama been?
