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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2010 : 05:26:48
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How many stupid ideas can you squeeze into one product? The COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET attempts to answer that question:
COMBINES THE MOST POWERFUL FORCES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
Do you believe? Wear this solid COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET for the most powerful healing and comfort you’ve ever experienced! COPPER has been relied on for centuries to ease the pain of arthritis. MAGNETS are used therapeutically to ease muscle pain, tendonitis, bursitis, back pain, poor circulation and more. And faith in the miracles of JESUS can not only protect you from physical pain, but soothe your soul in times of stress! |
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2010 : 07:23:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
How many stupid ideas can you squeeze into one product? The COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET attempts to answer that question:
COMBINES THE MOST POWERFUL FORCES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
Do you believe? Wear this solid COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET for the most powerful healing and comfort you’ve ever experienced! COPPER has been relied on for centuries to ease the pain of arthritis. MAGNETS are used therapeutically to ease muscle pain, tendonitis, bursitis, back pain, poor circulation and more. And faith in the miracles of JESUS can not only protect you from physical pain, but soothe your soul in times of stress! |
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That is just precious!
COMBINES THE MOST POWERFUL FORCES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
Do you believe? Wear this solid COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET for the most powerful healing and comfort you’ve ever experienced! COPPER has been relied on for centuries to ease the pain of arthritis. MAGNETS are used therapeutically to ease muscle pain, tendonitis, bursitis, back pain, poor circulation and more. And faith in the miracles of JESUS can not only protect you from physical pain, but soothe your soul in times of stress! Fully adjustable to fit most wrists.
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But will it ward off a dose of the pipe-bendin', Vietnam bullhead clap? I rather doubt it.
The do have one thing correct, though. Throughout history, copper has been used as adornments and thought to have healing powers. Which proves that while we are more technologically advanced, many of us are no smarter. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 09:47:42 [Permalink]
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| The stupid just rolls on... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 12:59:29 [Permalink]
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Do you believe? Wear this solid COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET for the most powerful healing and comfort you?ve ever experienced! COPPER has been relied on for centuries to ease the pain of arthritis. MAGNETS are used therapeutically to ease muscle pain, tendonitis, bursitis, back pain, poor circulation and more. And faith in the miracles of JESUS can not only protect you from physical pain, but soothe your soul in times of stress! >>
Belief is the operative word here, and there are many cases where belief actually cured many human ailments, but IMO the only cures recorded were ailments caused by hysteria or conflicting beliefs, nothing visually apparent.
cantbe323 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 14:01:41 [Permalink]
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cantbe said:
| and there are many cases where belief actually cured many human ailments |
Lets see some documentation of one case where "belief" cured an illness.
I know, asking you to back up any claim is futile, but still.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 18:36:26 [Permalink]
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cantbe323:
...but IMO the only cures recorded were ailments caused by hysteria or conflicting beliefs, nothing visually apparent. |
I happen to know that the opinion you hold is wrong. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 18:47:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by cantbe323
Do you believe? Wear this solid COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET for the most powerful healing and comfort you?ve ever experienced! COPPER has been relied on for centuries to ease the pain of arthritis. MAGNETS are used therapeutically to ease muscle pain, tendonitis, bursitis, back pain, poor circulation and more. And faith in the miracles of JESUS can not only protect you from physical pain, but soothe your soul in times of stress! >>
Belief is the operative word here, and there are many cases where belief actually cured many human ailments, but IMO the only cures recorded were ailments caused by hysteria or conflicting beliefs, nothing visually apparent.
cantbe323
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I'm an excellent driver. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2010 : 12:58:24 [Permalink]
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and there are many cases where belief actually cured many human ailments
Lets see some documentation of one case where "belief" cured an illness.
I know, asking you to back up any claim is futile, but still. >>
I can't pull the proof out of my hat, and you know it. My background of of obseversation and exposure goes back 70 years, and I don't keep files. It's about debunking questionable conventional practices or beliefs, not debunking cantbe323. I'm on the skeptics side.
Cantbe323 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2010 : 13:09:19 [Permalink]
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(WARNING: Obligitory Hitler reference below)
You're on the Skeptic's side like Hitler was on the Evolutionist's side. There is a difference between being skeptical about certain things and Skepticism, the latter we try to practice here and it involves backing up the things you claim, something you are unwilling to even try. Finding the well-documented evidence to back up the placebo effect is about as easy a task as you are going to get.
Edit: Just be prepared when we counter with the well-documented evidence that the placebo effect does not actually exist. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/12/2010 13:14:15 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2010 : 12:35:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
cantbe323:
...but IMO the only cures recorded were ailments caused by hysteria or conflicting beliefs, nothing visually apparent. |
I happen to know that the opinion you hold is wrong.
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Most improvement from placebos is in symptoms (pain, etc). Improvements in objectively measured outcomes can definitely occur without intervention, but I don't know of good evidence that placebo is better than no intervention ("control") in these cases, or at least no good evidence that placebo effect is effective for longer than shortly after the placebo is initiated. (Not that there COULDN'T be an effect, at least a small one, because there are clearly ties between neurologic function & all sorts of body functions including bronchial reactivity, GI function, & immune function.) While objectively apparent conditions clearly can and do improve & even (sometimes) resolve without specific intervention, it's not clear that "placebo" or "belief" is responsible for the improvement or resolution.
Two recent papers purportedly showing opposite results (placebo is or is not effective on objective measures of asthma) - but the time course of the studies is crucial:
1) "Placebo response in asthma: a robust and objective phenomenon" J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2007 Jun;119(6):1375-81. Pub Med ID = 17451796. The abstract reads (emphasis added): | BACKGROUND: Placebos are hypothesized to exert positive effects on medical conditions by enhancing patient expectancies. Recent reviews suggest that placebo benefits are restricted to subjective responses, like pain, but might be ineffective for objective physiologic outcomes. Nevertheless, mind-body links and placebo responsivity in asthma are widely believed to exist. OBJECTIVE: We carried out a randomized, double-blind investigation to (1) determine whether placebo can suppress airway hyperreactivity in asthmatic subjects, (2) quantify the placebo effect, (3) identify predictors of the placebo response, and (4) determine whether physician interventions modify the placebo response. METHODS: In a double-blind, crossover design investigation, 55 subjects with mild intermittent and persistent asthma with stable airway hyperreactivity were randomized to placebo or salmeterol before serial methacholine challenges. Subjects were additionally randomized to physician interactions that communicated either positive or neutral expectancies regarding drug effect. RESULTS: Placebo bronchodilator administration significantly reduced bronchial hyperreactivity compared with baseline (the calculated concentration of methacholine required to induce a 20% decrease in FEV(1) nearly doubled); 18% of subjects were placebo responders by using conservative definitions. Experimental manipulation of physician behavior altered perceptions of the physician but not the magnitude or frequency of the placebo response. CONCLUSIONS: Objective placebo effects exist in asthma. These responses are of significant magnitude and likely to be meaningful clinically. The placebo response was not modulated by alterations in physician behavior in this study. CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: The placebo response in patients with asthma is important in understanding the limitations of clinical research studies and in maximizing safe and effective therapies. This article confirms the existence of a strong placebo response in an objective and clinically relevant measure of disease activity. |
This was a crossover study, meaning that everyone was subjected to both the placebo and the active medication (in separate "runs") - that's a strength. This study did show objective placebo effect, in 18% of subjects, BUT it was studying a short-term effect, over a few minutes to maybe an hour, NOT the effect of asthma control over the long run. (Note that other non-medication potentially "placebo" interventions such as meditation, biofeedback, homeopathic med could potentially cause this type of short-term objective benefit.)
2) "Randomized trial of the effect of drug presentation on asthma outcomes" in J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2009 Sep;124(3):436-44, 444e1-8, Pub med ID = 19632710. The abstract reads (emphasis added): | BACKGROUND: Information that enhances expectations about drug effectiveness improves the response to placebos for pain. Although asthma symptoms often improve with placebo, it is not known whether the response to placebo or active treatment can be augmented by increasing expectation of benefit. OBJECTIVE: The study objective was to determine whether response to placebo or a leukotriene antagonist (montelukast) can be augmented by messages that increase expectation of benefit. METHODS: A randomized 20-center controlled trial enrolled 601 asthmatic patients with poor symptom control who were assigned to one of 5 study groups. Participants were randomly assigned to one of 4 treatment groups in a factorial design (ie, placebo with enhanced messages, placebo with neutral messages, montelukast with enhanced messages, or montelukast with neutral messages) or to usual care. Assignment to study drug was double masked, assignment to message content was single masked, and usual care was not masked. The enhanced message aimed to increase expectation of benefit from the drug. The primary outcome was mean change in daily peak flow over 4 weeks. Secondary outcomes included lung function and asthma symptom control. RESULTS: Peak flow and other lung function measures were not improved in participants assigned to the enhanced message groups versus the neutral messages groups for either montelukast or placebo; no differences were noted between the neutral placebo and usual care groups. Placebo-treated participants had improved asthma control with the enhanced message but not montelukast-treated participants; the neutral placebo group did have improved asthma control compared with the usual care group after adjusting for baseline difference. Headaches were more common in participants provided messages that mentioned headache as a montelukast side effect. CONCLUSIONS: Optimistic drug presentation augments the placebo effect for patient-reported outcomes (asthma control) but not lung function. However, the effect of montelukast was not enhanced by optimistic messages regarding treatment effectiveness. |
Studies on treatment of warts are now all placebo-controlled, but that doesn't mean that the placebo or a "belief" results in the resolution of warts, just that warts are known to "spontaneously" resolve over time (meaning, immune system clears them). I found one recent review which raises the question as to whether placebo might actually help clear warts, but found no studies to actually support that suggestion.
Edited to fix italics & add one parenthetical comment
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| Edited by - Zebra on 02/13/2010 12:44:10 |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2010 : 21:42:24 [Permalink]
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| Okay, then, what about the HOMEOPATHIC COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET, eh? |
| Edited by - podcat on 02/13/2010 21:43:59 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 17:48:50 [Permalink]
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R. Wreck.....
| How many stupid ideas can you squeeze into one product? |
Well, more! But then there's...... TA DA!.....
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 18:24:56 [Permalink]
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Podcat.....
| Okay, then, what about the HOMEOPATHIC COPPER MAGNETIC THERAPY JESUS BRACELET, eh? |
It does not work better!! It does not work less better. It does not work just as well, 'tho! Just send money, forget the fucking bracelets, mine won't work either, but mine is a hell of a lot more homeopathic than yours and if you'll send your money to me, I'll spend it faster than Dream Products will and I won't burden you with a stupid worthless bracelet!
Besides, I haven't lied to you about my worthless bracelet - (except about the molecules. I don't have any idea how many molecules of copper, the damn thing is probably spray painted!)
All I want is your money and that is the truth! |
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2010 : 19:27:00 [Permalink]
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| There is a difference between being skeptical about certain things and Skepticism, the latter we try to practice here and it involves backing up the things you claim, something you are unwilling to even try. |
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cantbe323
Suspended
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2010 : 19:34:03 [Permalink]
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There is a difference between being skeptical about certain things and Skepticism, the latter we try to practice here <<
Glad to hear it. For a while there I thought it was just the critical bleating of disgruntled sheep.
cantbe323 |
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The Perfect Storm of Stupidity
