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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 10:03:31 [Permalink]
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Opinions are claims. Some opinions are informed, some are not. Like any claim, opinions which are asserted without evidence may be rejected without evidence.
Subjective claims like "my favorite color is red" are always "informed" since all that is required to assert a subjective claim is self-knowledge. Many people conflate objective claims with subjective ones, however. The assertion "In my opinion, god exists" can be split into either the subjective claim (i.e. that this person believes in god, which requires no further substantiation beyond the individual's own avowal); and the objective claim that god exists in reality. The objective claim, if left unsupported, may be immediately rejected.
Adding the qualifier "in my opinion" really does nothing to change the nature of a claim. If anything, it's usually just used as a verbal shorthand for saying "I cannot substantiate this claim," making most statements of opinion totally irrelevant.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2010 : 10:05:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Because right now I am very close to locking this thread. And that's something I have never done before. |
Yes, you have.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 11:35:40 [Permalink]
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I was going to remind Kil of that, but didn't want to antagonize him!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 16:50:44 [Permalink]
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Kil.......
I stated to Dave:
| I do have other fans here, you know! |
You commented on my statement to Dave:
Kil I was not in any way referring to you as a fan, I was citing the legions of my SFN supporters that anxiously await my every syllable! You haven't noticed?
Also to dglas, who, inadvertently, made a comment in another thread that suggested to a Star Wars junkie like me that he had joined in my crusade for the correct use of grammar here on SFN. (He really had done no such thing)
However, to the point of your comment, I would appreciate a little clarification as to whom it was directed besides myself. I certainly plead guilty to the flaming charge. I definitely have a nasty temper, Dude's temper is legendary, and I have had personal evidence of Dave's temper that you would not believe.
Dave was anxiously awaiting my return, but has graciously granted me permission to "take my time" and to ask him for an audience when I get back. Dude has conceded defeat, and refuses to answer my responses to him, and there is no one else interested enough in this thread to continue it for any time. So no problem for the present. The thread will likely expire soon for lack of interest.
When I return, I may pick up on it depending on how the box office looks, your response to this letter, and any other commentary that has appeared that is relevant to the "Opinion" thread - which I really think was a good idea of Dude's as there is a great deal remaining to be examined here beyond what little substance has already been covered.
The thread has certainly gotten out of control and I am certainly a obviative cause of that situation. My concern is as to whether or not you (as the owner of SFN) feel that the responsibility is singularly or primarily mine; or rather, that it is shared approximately equally amongst the parties that have been involved in these puppy fights. I recognize that you addressed "guys" (plural) in your objurgation (locking the thread, as you have done before, could be a very serious affront to some of the participants here), so who are the "guys"?
Your authority as owner is completely clear to me, as it was in your previous use of the locking key, and in your call to end the previous thread. I have no objection, in either principle or instance, to such actions.
If these expressions of emotional animosity (whether real or fabricated does not matter) here continue, the Forums will revert back to the situation I decried a year or two ago. My personal situation and outlook has changed substantially since that time; and unlike my first few months of participation here, I am now more than willing to abide by sensible and fair rules of decorum -- or return invective in kind as experienced, with escalation as the provocation increases. I truly do not possess the almost saintly tolerance that you display, so I cannot agree not to retaliate in kind that which I receive; it's the devil's golden rule -Return to others that which they render unto you! (Sounds almost like a Christian creed, doesn't it?) I certainly agree, however, from this point on not to initiate insult until I have been insulted.
I am completely aware of the juvenile, almost infantile aspect of the journalistic behavior that I and others have been indulging ourselves here recently. The four letter words are the most childish (but they are so much fun to use). However, I am certainly willing to abjure those, as well as all general insult; as long as it is not thrown in my face by someone else here!
Your position is beyond reproach of any kind. You are, or should be, the public face of SFN. What's been going on around here must be damn embarassing to you. If this were a commercial enterprise, heads would have rolled, both staff and members, some time ago. I know why that is not an option to you, as this is not a commercial enterprise, and you have neither the time nor inclination to act as its supervisor. I have ample personal experience with owner frustration and stress when employees and customers become embroiled in ruction.
But I do believe that the members here deserve a pledge to not be insulted by staff, if they are willing to sincerely pledge themselves not to insult either staff or other members. Although SFN would lose some of its childish appeal as entertainment to me, such a contract would undoubtedly result in much more mature and productive Forums. At the shuddering risk of no longer being considered quite as supercilious as I am seen now, I am certainly more than willing to be subject to such a commitment.
I will refrain from further comment on SFN until it is possible for you to address what I have said here. I genuinely take seriously the fact that you are the owner of SFN and you have the absolute right to establish any rules that you alone feel are necessary for both staff and members to follow. I would like to know your views on the use of scatology, profanity and insult specifically as it may apply to exchanges between members, and menbers and staff; excluding, hopefully, commentary on Republicans and those of high religious persuasion. And as to whom the restrictions, if any, apply and to whom they do not apply.
This coming week (Sunday to ?) will be an excellent time for me to refrain from comment as I will be in San Francisco - the city of Brotherly and Sisterly Love - and I intend to return with an even better understanding of Man-Woman-Beast relationships in all their permutations and combinations.
Best regards to you, and I hope you can clarify what you would likeSFN to be from this point forward.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 19:40:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Yes, I think that Dave's statement is incorrect. "In my opinion red is the most beautiful color there is." is a statement of personal preference, not a statement of fact (although I guess you could argue that it is a statement of fact regarding your preferences  ). |
Yes, personal preferences are facts. Preferences with regard to color, food, movies, music, etc. all could be, with a proper experimental protocol, objectively measured, although it'd probably be a waste of resources as such things change over time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 21:22:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Kil
Because right now I am very close to locking this thread. And that's something I have never done before. |
Yes, you have.
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I'm old. Darn!!! I stand corrected. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 21:25:49 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Kil I was not in any way referring to you as a fan... |
And I didn't take it that way. You were not the only person my post was directed at.
Everyone here, including you, know that I have pushed for more civility on this forum. And we got there, pretty much. And now I see it moving back in the other direction, just as I stated in my post.
I do not censer what our members write in their posts (unless the post is clearly spam.) I'm asking for a bit of self control from everyone who posts here is all. Same as before. I don't have to make up a list of offenders or offenses. You're all adults. Figure it out.
Also, Bill. I need for you to understand, because you say that I am the owner of this site, that I am not the sole owner. Dave and @tomic have just as much say here as I do. We are equals where it comes to ownership. And really, no one here works harder than Dave does to keep SFN a going concern. He has more than earned my respect. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 03:35:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by tomk80
Yes, I think that Dave's statement is incorrect. "In my opinion red is the most beautiful color there is." is a statement of personal preference, not a statement of fact (although I guess you could argue that it is a statement of fact regarding your preferences ). |
Yes, personal preferences are facts. Preferences with regard to color, food, movies, music, etc. all could be, with a proper experimental protocol, objectively measured, although it'd probably be a waste of resources as such things change over time.
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Yes, but it would only hold true for that person. You could do your measurements and conclude that he was lying, that red is not his favorite color but blue is. But that still doesn't make blue the most beautiful color there is for everyone. I happen to like yellow, thank you very much.
If someone says "in my opinion red is the most beautiful color there is", my strongest reaction will be to state that I like yellow. If someone says "in my opinion creationism is valid", we'll end up having a discussion. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 08:48:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Yes, but it would only hold true for that person. You could do your measurements and conclude that he was lying, that red is not his favorite color but blue is. But that still doesn't make blue the most beautiful color there is for everyone. I happen to like yellow, thank you very much. |
Sure, but the fact being discovered would be of the form, "tomk80 finds yellow to be more beautiful than other colors," which should be true regardless of who is doing the testing (objectively true). Heck, even if someone drops the "in my opinion" part, it's understood that "red is the most beautiful color" is a statement of a personal preference, and not a universal truth, so the fact being declared (to possibly be tested) cannot be properly appreciated without its context.
"I have a mole on my neck, in this particular spot," is true for even fewer people than who like red the most, but nobody would deny that it's an assertion of fact (and nobody would prefix it with "in my opinion").| If someone says "in my opinion red is the most beautiful color there is", my strongest reaction will be to state that I like yellow. If someone says "in my opinion creationism is valid", we'll end up having a discussion. |
Yes, because the contexts are different. "Magic is real" will get a different reaction here on the SFN than it would in a Harry Potter book review (unless, perhaps, the book review were posted here on the SFN). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 08:52:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by tomk80
Yes, but it would only hold true for that person. You could do your measurements and conclude that he was lying, that red is not his favorite color but blue is. But that still doesn't make blue the most beautiful color there is for everyone. I happen to like yellow, thank you very much. |
Sure, but the fact being discovered would be of the form, "tomk80 finds yellow to be more beautiful than other colors," which should be true regardless of who is doing the testing (objectively true). Heck, even if someone drops the "in my opinion" part, it's understood that "red is the most beautiful color" is a statement of a personal preference, and not a universal truth, so the fact being declared (to possibly be tested) cannot be properly appreciated without its context.
"I have a mole on my neck, in this particular spot," is true for even fewer people than who like red the most, but nobody would deny that it's an assertion of fact (and nobody would prefix it with "in my opinion").| If someone says "in my opinion red is the most beautiful color there is", my strongest reaction will be to state that I like yellow. If someone says "in my opinion creationism is valid", we'll end up having a discussion. |
Yes, because the contexts are different. "Magic is real" will get a different reaction here on the SFN than it would in a Harry Potter book review (unless, perhaps, the book review were posted here on the SFN).
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Yes, that's what I argued in the first place, wasn't it?
Not all opinions (or statements labeled as opinion) are statements of fact. It is dependent on the statement and the context of the statement whether it is a fact or a statement of personal preference or something else entirely. Labeling a statement as an opinion doesn't influence that. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 03/14/2010 08:59:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 08:59:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by tomk80
Yes, that's what I argued in the first place, wasn't it? |
Sure is.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 10:29:25 [Permalink]
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The fact context is relevant is so glaringly self evident that I am confused by the apparent need to explain the relevance of context.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 14:35:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
The fact context is relevant is so glaringly self evident that I am confused by the apparent need to explain the relevance of context. |
Well, I wasn't really explaining it to tomk80. Heck, a solid knowledge of the context is necessary even just to correctly parse an English sentence, and to be able to correctly select definitions of the individual words within. On the other hand, creationists have made a habit of equivocation in their arguments, using different meanings of the same word regardless of the context, to further their logic-twisting semantic games. It's like they list all the dictionary definitions they can find for a word you've used, and pick a wrong one for the context just to try to make you look like a fool. It usually backfires, though. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 16:07:47 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
Thanks for your reply. I especially appreciate your making it clear that you, @tomic, and Dave are equal co-owners of SFN. You had told me some time ago that you had hired Dave to be editor of the Forums and, because I almost automatically think in terms of corporate or business heirarchy as far as management structure is concerned, I had thought of you as the dominant owner of these Forums, @tomic as the owner of the website itself and somehow involved in the ownership and management of the Forums, and Dave as an employee of SFN, specifically as an employee of yours.
This was my mistake, partly due to miscommunication and partly due to my assumption that your organizational structure was similar to that of a business, corporation, government or even non-profit organization.
In any event, your clarification has substantially changed my view of SFN and its ownership and management. Unless I misunderstand you, you; Dave and @tomic are all equal partners and owners of SFN and equally share management perogatives as to policy, rules, regulation of member's behavior and the like.
In the unlikely event that someone were to offer to buy the entire enterprise, there would need to be an agreement of some form between the three owners as to whether or not SFN was for sale; and if so, what was an appropriate price, and of course, if in legal fact, each of you had exactly a one-third ownership or an agreement as to how to divide the proceeds of such a transaction.
If this is true, it clearly defines ownership of the SFN forums, and greatly clarifies several important things for me.
As I have stated before, I respect the perogatives of ownership. My approach to my posting posture here will be adjusted in the future to conform to my new understanding of how SFN is structured; both as to ownership and management.
I have stated:I am now more than willing to abide by sensible and fair rules of decorum -- or return invective in kind as experienced, with escalation as the provocation increases.
I certainly agree, however, from this point on not to initiate insult until I have been insulted.
The four letter words are the most childish (but they are so much fun to use). However, I am certainly willing to abjure those, as well as all general insult; as long as it is not thrown in my face by someone else here!
But I do believe that the members here deserve a pledge to not be insulted by staff, if they are willing to sincerely pledge themselves not to insult either staff or other members. At the shuddering risk of no longer being considered quite as supercilious as I am seen now, I am certainly more than willing to be subject to such a commitment. |
All of the above still remains my statement of my position as a member here. If it becomes clear that insult has been initiated and directed to me from member, manager, or owner; without specific insult provocation by me, I will return it in kind. If owners or managers of SFN are the initiators of the insult, I understand that they have the authority to insult me or ban me irrespective of reason, no reason is required, the choice is arbitrarily theirs whether the insult directed by owner or manager was directed without provocation or not.
I do not challenge the authority of any owner or manager of SFN to take any action they may wish - to censure me if I am returning an insult they, or another member, directed to me. I would hope that with respect to managers (I believe you call them moderators), that the insult initiator would be equally censured, but that, of course, is up to you owners.
The three owners of SFN, of course, are free to take any censure action they wish at any time and for any reason or none at all. They own the Forums and they may do as they wish, period!
I have to run and catch a plane Kil, so I will be seeing you here in about a week.
The very best of luck to you, and I certainly hope for some economic recovery in the remainder of the year. At least there are positive signs in the market! |
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The ‘opinion’ thread
