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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2010 : 18:16:37 [Permalink]
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Usually, when I state that I have an opinion on something, it tends to indicate that I have no hard evidence for something but I reckon that it is correct. Now, this means that
1) I have not fully researched something
2) I have no sources at hand that supports the statement
3) I will not be surprised if the opinion is wrong
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 14:10:45 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Apparently your thread on "Opinion" pretty much died after I went out of town for a few days, as I had suspected it would. It demonstrates that you, a couple of others, and myself are the only ones that have much interest in continuing this thread, each for substantially different reasons, I suspect.
You said: | If you, at some future point, decide you want to honestly discuss the issue, just go ahead and bring it up. |
Thank you! I am going ahead and bringing it up now. I want to honestly discuss the issue without rancor or insult; and not merely the invocation of "strawmen", instead of a response. I respond to the "strawman" accusation below.
I shall not use verbal abuse nor insult is continuing this discussion, and per Kil’s request, I would appreciate it if you also refrained from insulting comment. Commentary regarding my age is irrelevant to the topic. I am 81, you are probably 40 something. My skin is tanned, yours may be darker or lighter. None of that relates to our subject of discussion.
Please give me a substantive answer instead of evasions such as "I am uninterested in responding to you", "you are stupid", "you are too old to think" or "you are writing nonsense". All of these may or may not be true but they do not address the topic.
I would like to pick up on this discussion with you at the point where you refused to answer my argument and stated:| As for your most recent post here bng, can I loan you a flame to set those strawmen alight? |
Wiki defines strawman:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on (1.) misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by (2.) substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it,(3.) without ever having actually refuted the original position. |
1. I did not misrepresent your position, I labeled it a “statement of alleged fact” So.....
Dude, Is this comment of yours in the blue quote box.... | "The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact." |
.... a statement of alleged fact itself? If it is, then I did not misrepresent your position.
2. Nor did I "substitute a superficially similar proposition and refute it". I used an identical example, not a superficially similar one, i.e.by your rules.....
The sentence - "confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse" - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact. |
and asked you what evidence you had for that statement of alleged fact. I did not refute it at that point, playing by your rules.
You responded that the evidence was:| "Your posts where you make the claim." |
But you have not shown in any way, other than to declare it so, that it is a claim. I say it is an opinion.
Dude, how do my posts in that thread constitute evidence by any authority other than your own proclamation, that my comment was "a statement of alleged fact", or a "claim"?
Are you saying that my comment on animal abuse is a self-evident claim of fact? If so, please demonstrate the self-evidence of what you allege to be my claim. If not, what is the external evidence?
3. It is impossible for me to "refute the original position" of yours that my comment regarding animal abuse is a statement of fact; other than repeating my position that it is an opinion. I have already given several examples as to how I came to hold that opinion. I did not and do not represent it as a statement of fact, as no facts exist as to it's truth or falsity. And I gave you ample evidence as to how I came by my opinion.
3b. I have already adequately demonstrated that my statement met many of the dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of opinion. I cannot produce evidence that it is a statement of fact, because no such evidence exists. What else can I tell you, Dude, to satisfy your demand for my accepting the burden of “proof” of my opinion? | I'm uninterested in responding to your stupidity in any substantive way. |
I ask you for the third time to respond to my argument because this is a Skeptics forum, and answering my challenge to you to give me evidence for your statement of alleged fact is what I have been told that Skeptics do, and that it is intellectual cowardice to do otherwise.
I will ignore your use of the word "stupidity" unless you repeat it and can prove it. If you cannot do that, then it is simple insult for insult’s sake. Why is it that you are uninterested in responding to me and substituting insult for reason? Is it that you are unable to answer my argument?
In your last post to me you state:| There is nothing in your post that warrants a reasoned response. You are well aware of that. It isn't that I'm uninterested in responding, rather I'm uninterested in responding to nonsense. You want me to "prove" that your statement is a claim of fact? Get over yourself man. If your statement isn't a claim of fact, then nothing is a claim of fact. |
1. "There is nothing in your post that warrants a reasoned response."
There is my assertion that, by your rules, your statement concerning my comment on animal abuse is itself a statement of alleged fact!
Give me the evidence for your statement of alleged fact.
2."You are well aware of that."
I am not aware of that at all. You cannot substantiate that statement.
3."It isn't that I'm uninterested in responding, rather I'm uninterested in responding to nonsense."
Then respond to it and prove that it is nonsense. You cannot create truth by merely stating that something is true.
4."You want me to "prove" that your statement is a claim of fact?"
No, I want you to prove that your statement is a claim of fact - by giving me evidence that you are referring to facts. Actually, you originally asked me to bear the burden of proof of my comment (opinion) on animal abuse. I told you there was no proof and also told you how I came by my opinion. Why does it seem outrageous to you that I am asking you to do the same thing?
5."Get over yourself, man."
I see this as a non sequitur and cannot comment on it intelligently.
6."If your statement isn't a claim of fact, then nothing is a claim of fact"
It is not a statement of fact unless you, or someone else (because you cannot), can demonstrate that it is a statement of fact, by referencing the facts (evidence) to which it supposedly has reference. I cannot reference such facts. To the best of my knowledge, they do not exist!
"then nothing is a claim of fact"
Nothing is a claim of fact that does not have reference to evidential alleged fact. If that fact proves to be nonexistent, the claim is no longer a claim. My statement might be a claim of alleged fact, but it is not such as no facts exist to support it.
Dude, again, I would appreciate a reasoned, logical, response. Insults and derogations are not argument. Answer, or quit.
Further evasion does not serve your reputation or image on SFN well. Logically show me up to be the fool that you have accused me of being! I would welcome it, because I learn more from being shown that I was mistaken than I do from being accused of error that I did not commit.
There are many unresolved issues in your excellent thread here; mostly between your certainty that Opinion is alleged fact; and my position that Opinion may be alleged fact, but it may be many other things depending upon if and how it is qualified. There are a number of things that I have not yet had the time and opportunity to answer, and I will, in due time.
But first, before engaging others, I would like to politely ask you to respond civilly to the substance of this issue:
Are you making a statement of alleged fact when you say:[box] "The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact."
Yes or No?
Either way, we can continue profitably to the benefit of your thread and the possibility of learning something, rather than acting like children. I sincerely ask you to at least make an effort to respond logically to my arguments and answer my questions. I pledge to answer any and all arguments or questions that you ask of me!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 14:54:55 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| Please give me a substantive answer instead of evasions such as "I am uninterested in responding to you", "you are stupid", "you are too old to think" or "you are writing nonsense". All of these may or may not be true but they do not address the topic. |
Pffft, the name calling is only in response to you being a deliberate ass and ignoring self evident data points.
An opinion is a claim. Your views, beliefs, convictions, sentiments, and so on are all claims. Law students would break down claims into three catagories (fact, value, and policy).
A claim of fact follows this form: Air Force test pilot is a dangerous job.
Claims of value: The SFN is a valuable internet resource for skeptics.
Claims of policy: Internet trolls detract from the value of the SFN and should all be banned.
The addition of "in my opinion" does not change the FACT (self evident fact at that) that you are still making a claim.
So when you say:
| In my opinion, captivity itself is abuse for most captive wild animals. |
You are making a claim. In that form you are making a claim of fact.
All you do by adding "in my opinion" is admit that you lack any evidence to support your claim of fact.
So yes, all of your efforts so far in this thread do constitute a huge straw man fallacy. You are attempting to shield your claim of fact by arguing the definition of "opinion".
Better luck next time.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 15:04:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
Apparently your thread on "Opinion" pretty much died after I went out of town for a few days, as I had suspected it would. It demonstrates that you, a couple of others, and myself are the only ones that have much interest in continuing this thread, each for substantially different reasons, I suspect. |
Looking at the postings here, you seem to be the only person with any substantial disagreement with the position put forth by Dude, me and others. So the fact that the thread died down during your absence merely demonstrates that one entire side of the discussion had left town. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 16:56:53 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
You made the statement:Is that statement a claim of fact? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 17:12:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
You made the statement:Is that statement a claim of fact?
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Just admit your mistake and move on man.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 15:10:07 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Originally posted by bngbuck:Dude.....
You made the statement:
Is that statement a claim of fact? |
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Your response to my simple seven-word question was the evasion:| Just admit your mistake and move on man |
Well, I would be glad to do exactly that if I had made a mistake; but obviously from your five separate posts, in each of which you flatly refuse to answer the simple questions I have asked you, it is you who have made the mistake. And it is this:
It is glaringly evident that you have been backed into a corner and you cannot get out, so you quit the debate. To paraphrase your OP in this thread, "Dude does this crap all the time, and the intent of his deceitful behavior is to cut debate short and shield his claim from the demands of evidence. I'm sure that most of the people here can spot his lack of logical response."
For example, in response to my request: "What is your evidence for your statement of alleged fact?"Dude evaded:
Your posts where you make the claim |
I answered, "However, playing by your rules, the fact that you state it is a "claim" does not make it so. Because I challenge you, you must prove it."Dude evades again:
I'm uninterested in responding to your stupidity in any substantive way. If you, at some future point, decide you want to honestly discuss the issue, just go ahead and bring it up. |
I answered: "I am bringing it up. I honestly want you to respond to my post. But it looks like you just dismiss out of hand when you are not able to sensibly respond. Insult will never replace reasoned logic on SFN!"Dude continues to evade:
There is nothing in your post that warrants a reasoned response. It isn't that I'm uninterested in responding, rather I'm uninterested in responding to nonsense. |
My reply was: "I am going ahead and bringing it up now. I want to honestly discuss the issue without rancor or insult."
"Are you making a statement of alleged fact when you say: 'The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact.'
Yes or No?"Dude evades the fourth time:
You are making a claim. In that form you are making a claim of fact. |
I understand that is what we are debating, however the fact you stated it does not establish its validity. You did not reply to my challenge.
My response was: You made the statement: Is that statement a claim of fact?Dude refuses to answer:
Just admit your mistake and move on man. |
Dude, it is a pretty sorry spectacle when you start your own thread with....| a recent thread suggests that this old argument needs to be rehashed yet again. |
and| Also, no actual opinion, on any subject, is immune to challenge. All opinions must be justified when challenged. Having an opinion on a subject should be the start of a debate, not the end of it. |
....and then end up running away from your own debate. You are doing exactly what you have admonished me and others not to do in the OP of your own thread; and you are doing it not far into that very same thread of yours! How self-contradictory is that? You are a hypocrite! That is not an insult, nor is it an opinion! It is a statement of fact and my proof lies in the current post where you advocate supporting positions (opinions) with evidence and then run away when pressed for such evidence yourself!
I am not prone to glibly toss off catch phrases like "Confirmation Bias". It is a serious psychological term and, because I attempt to keep up with the literature to some degree, I am quite familiar with it. I have already seen in this thread and the previous one that it is definitely possible that I am guilty to some degree of CB in my position on this thread.
The principle of not hiding behind the word "opinion" in order to conceal the fact that one cannot substantiate that opinion, has merit. If my position on Opinion as a statement of alleged fact is shown to be distorted by CB, I will adjust my position accordingly. I have no pretenses to infallibility and I have yet to find an Oracle on this Forum. However, it is more complex by far than simply stating that "Opinion is a statement of alleged fact", period. I intend to examine the CB issue if it is possible to continue this thread. However:
It appears overwhelmingly obvious that you have a really bad case of CB, as you can only endlessly repeat the phrase "opinion is claim of fact", occasionally adding the word "alleged" in front of "fact"; and whan asked to demonstrate the validity of your opinion, or even the reasons for holding such an opinion, you run away and refuse to answer - again and again! - instead of returning serious response to the challenge offered.
Shortly, others will be offering exercises in syllogistic reasoning intended to destroy my argument, and that is a good thing. I do not intend to "move on" until several issues are further examined. None, of course will be settled, as that is not possible in epistemological debate.
I am seriously sorry that you are not capable of defending yourself in this arena and must depend upon your intellectual superiors to argue and attempt to make your case for you in your own thread.
You used to offer me considerable sport. All that you apparently have left is personal insult and pathetic statements such as "I'm uninterested in responding to your stupidity in any substantive way" remarkably followed by, "It isn't that I'm uninterested in responding, rather I'm uninterested in responding to nonsense, and "Just admit your mistake and move on man.". Not exactly a stalwart Skeptic's defense of an attack on his position!
One final time, Dude. Surely you can answer yes or no.
Is your statement: ....a claim of an alleged fact?
Yes or No?
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 16:26:24 [Permalink]
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"An opinion is a claim" is a fact claim.
"'The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact.'" is a fact claim.
Can we now move on from this pointless exercise of asking the obvious? Please Bngbuck? If you want to make a point with these pointless questions, please just make it. Otherwise it's just annoying. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 03/24/2010 16:35:51 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 17:35:24 [Permalink]
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bng, your Faulknerian verbosity aside...
I am not going to engage you in a conversation about what is and isn't a claim. It would be like debating basic sentence structure, something you should already have firm grasp of when you venture into these forums.
I'm not running away from any debate, I just refuse to debate your ridiculous straw men.
If you don't know what constitutes a claim then I'm afraid it isn't really possible to have any conversation with you at all. I mean, if you don't understand the concept then you have a gaping hole in your ability to comprehend anything anyone would ever say to you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 17:43:04 [Permalink]
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Tomko.....
| "'The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact.'" is a fact claim. |
It may be, but it is not one that I can find or provide any facts or evidence to support; only the reasons why I hold the opinion. I have given those, and if those reasons are satisfactory to you, excellent. If not, what would you like?| Can we now move on from this pointless exercise? |
Maybe. I'm sorry that you find it pointless. I don't. I have loved epistemological arguments ever since college days back in the Dark Ages. My point can be illustrated here: You state that:| "An opinion is a claim" is a fact claim. |
Your statement in itself is also a fact claim. Please give me the evidence (or facts) upon which your fact claim is based.
If you cannot, or do not want to, that is fine with me, Tomko. I did not really ask you the question, although your answer is certainly welcome. I asked Dude, who posted a number of highly personal allegations about me and my statements and now is completely running away from his own argument, which he stated at the beginning of his thread was a terrible thing for anyone to do.| Otherwise it's just annoying. |
Maybe you could just not read Dude's thread, kind of like turning the TV off when you don't like the programming?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 18:16:15 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| I have loved epistemological arguments ever since college days back in the Dark Ages. |
See there is your problem. This isn't an epistemological argument. This is about simple usage. You are just blathering on to yourself and wasting precious moments of your life having an argument that only you are engaging in. Very odd behavior, in my opinion.
We are not talking about propositional knowledge, but rather how language is used. In this specific instance we are talking about claims.
How about this, I'll change one of my previous statements.(I did this before, but you chose to ignore it, so let me state it more clearly for you) Opinion and fact claim are not mutually exclusive propositions. All opinions, in addition to being opinion, are also claims (fact, value, policy).
So your opinion about animal captivity being de facto cruelty is also a fact claim.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 18:49:32 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| I am not going to engage you in a conversation about what is and isn't a claim. |
Nor did I ask you to. I asked you if the specific statement: Opinion is a claim was itself a claim to
fact. That's all! | I just refuse to debate your ridiculous straw men. |
Clearly define what you allege are my "strawmen". I deny using any strawmen in this thread.| If you don't know what constitutes a claim...... |
Webster and I both do. | 3 : an assertion, statement, or implication (as of value, effectiveness, qualification, eligibility) often made or likely to be suspected of being made without adequate justification <his claims to sound scholarship> <appraising the authenticity of some dealer's claim -- |
| I mean, if you don't understand the concept then you have a gaping hole in your ability to comprehend anything anyone would ever say to you. |
Well, in 81 years I've managed to complete a significant formal education, create, own and operate five different businesses, earn, invest, and accumulate a substantial amount of money, travel to a large portion of the entire world, reside in three countries and eleven states for periods of more than one year, and have meaningful conversations with thousands of people in many, many diverse places. Guess I'm just lucky with the comprehension thing!
Pretty damn hard to do all that with no comprehension at all!
I clearly understand what a claim is and I am not asking you to define it. We have reference books for that. I asked you to tell me if one specific claim (that I stated) was a claim to fact.
Talk about strawmen! Burn that "conversation about what is and isn't a claim" strawcrap, Dude
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 19:10:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
| "'The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact.'" is a fact claim. |
It may be, but it is not one that I can find or provide any facts or evidence to support; only the reasons why I hold the opinion. I have given those, and if those reasons are satisfactory to you, excellent. If not, what would you like? |
You've got to be kidding. The statement in question was a meta-statement about your opinion. And it was a fact claim, not stated as an opinion.
Dude is right, parsing English sentences seems to be a problem for you, bngbuck. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 00:01:56 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Let's see.....Dude posts many times:
Opinion is a claim |
Dude now posts:
All opinions, in addition to being opinion, are also claims (fact, value, policy). |
Damn! That is pure genius!
And I am supposed to have problems in parsing English!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 00:10:58 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
You stated:| All opinions, in addition to being opinion, are also claims (fact, value, policy). |
What is your factual evidence for that claim of fact? Or did you just make it up out of nowhere and expect it to be accepted just because you said it?
Prove it or shut up! It's not worth crap without evidence! |
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The ‘opinion’ thread
