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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2010 : 03:16:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was outraged at that too. But it was none of my (or yours) f*ing business because it was an Iraqi internal issue. It was the Iraqi peoples prime responsibility to rise against Saddam. |
Not our business? Really?
So these crimes against humanity are not our business as they happen behind an recognized national border and the main criminal is the chief of state? |
It is our business, but that doesn't mean that attacking the victims of Saddam Hussein for twenty years is helpful. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 04:03:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
Seriously? You blame people that voted against Bush because they should have convinced others to not vote for him? |
Half of your f*ing country didn't even bother to vote at all. That's a major FAIL for a democracy.
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It's a major FAIL that so many people vote in a system that's not democratic at all. We've just been supporting a corrupt system by voting, at least in a lot of these national elections. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 17:48:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Al Quaida decided to stomp on it by hitting strategic targets like WTC, Pentagon, and presumably the White House (too bad the didn't succeed, the would/could have been rid of Bush). |
Just verifying you said that, nice... 
| Instead of focussing their effort on how to effectively combat the injustices that feeds organizations like Al Quaida, USA responded with arms and thus gave Al Quaida a second victory. |
The environment for Al-Qaeda (and others) to form was in place even in the absence of the U.S., particularly in Afghanistan.
| most people think you're a nation of idiots. Al Quaida wins again. |
1. Why should I care if they think that?
2. We were winning the popularity contests in 2000?
| Every time you try to defend American precence in the Middle East, you come off as an imperialist or douche-bag neo-con, and Al Quaida wins. |
It's not a two-sided battle, the "war on terror" language likes to push it that way, but that's all political rhetoric. There are disparate interests in the region -- some being served by U.S. presence, some being harmed. The current war in Iraq specifically appears to be mostly harm, but this isn't true in general.
| The only responsible thing is to remove any and all troops from Iraq, pronto. |
Responsible? I'm not sure. It would have been responsible to not start it, but immediately leaving may well cause more harm than a slower withdraw (even that we aren't having yet -- sort of thought that was Obama's intention). The idea I think is to clean the mess up enough that it's viable to leave. I do think we see somewhat of a move in that direction, as feeble as it may be -- like rehiring some ex-Ba'athist military officials, moving U.S. forces out of some cities.
@Gorgo -- to which corruption are you referring? I'm comfortable admitting it isn't democracy in the strictest sense, but no one can really respond to a nonspecific criticism. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/14/2010 17:49:42 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 00:49:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was outraged at that too. But it was none of my (or yours) f*ing business because it was an Iraqi internal issue. It was the Iraqi peoples prime responsibility to rise against Saddam. |
Not our business? Really? |
Weel, it is our business, but it doesn't give us cart blanche to launch invations or try to bomb them back to the stoneage.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 01:13:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Al Quaida decided to stomp on it by hitting strategic targets like WTC, Pentagon, and presumably the White House (too bad the didn't succeed, the would/could have been rid of Bush). |
Just verifying you said that, nice... |
It may be hard for you to grasp, but many countries consider USA's foreign policies evil. And not just American government, but American corporations exploiting the third world without any real oversight, no checks for moral obligations.
People cheer for the other team.
| Instead of focussing their effort on how to effectively combat the injustices that feeds organizations like Al Quaida, USA responded with arms and thus gave Al Quaida a second victory. |
The environment for Al-Qaeda (and others) to form was in place even in the absence of the U.S., particularly in Afghanistan. |
What time period are you talking about, here?
| most people think you're a nation of idiots. Al Quaida wins again. |
1. Why should I care if they think that? |
Because you live on planet Earth too?
I'd rather buy Chineese and North Korean products than American, just to see your economy faulter.
| Every time you try to defend American precence in the Middle East, you come off as an imperialist or douche-bag neo-con, and Al Quaida wins. |
It's not a two-sided battle, the "war on terror" language likes to push it that way, but that's all political rhetoric. There are disparate interests in the region -- some being served by U.S. presence, some being harmed. The current war in Iraq specifically appears to be mostly harm, but this isn't true in general. |
When you include America's constant pandering to Israel, despite its crimes against humanity in Gaza, then hell yes: it's true in general.
| The only responsible thing is to remove any and all troops from Iraq, pronto. |
Responsible? I'm not sure. |
I am, every single time I think about the collateral murder video. And other videos I've seen from the region, where I've seen American soldiers fireing into urban residential areas without discrimination without even aiming.
| It would have been responsible to not start it, but immediately leaving may well cause more harm than a slower withdraw (even that we aren't having yet -- sort of thought that was Obama's intention). The idea I think is to clean the mess up enough that it's viable to leave. |
From the moment USA invaded Iraq, they were required by the Geneva Convetion to keep law and order. They still can't keep law and order, but murder civilians. Several hundred thousand civilians have been killed. Even if the current Iraqi police can't go a good job, they can surely do a better job than American troops.
Then there are all those private American security firms which aren't innocent either. They are there for profit, not humanitarian causes.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 05:33:00 [Permalink]
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Then there are all those private American security firms which aren't innocent either. They are there for profit, not humanitarian causes.
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The attack was a violation of international law, the occupation is a violation of international law. The people of Iraq are much worse off now than they were, even by the standards of life under the brutal sanctions.
We need to investigate the crimes of all the living presidents, pull the troops out immediately from these countries, and being to look at how we can begin to make some of these things right.
Now we have again, clear evidence, as if we needed it, that the whole process corrupts "our troops." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 06:13:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
And not just American government, but American corporations exploiting the third world without any real oversight, no checks for moral obligations. |
And not just American corporations.
Ever heard of a company called IKEA? H&M?
How about this company? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 08:07:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Half of your f*ing country didn't even bother to vote at all. That's a major FAIL for a democracy.
When a country's citizens won't bother to keep themselves informed, and don't participate actively in the responsibility they have when living in a country with fairly free elections, then we can't really honestly say there's a democracy. |
This is what comes with freedom. People are free to be ignorant if they want and free to not vote. That is our right as Americans.
Also, does it seem coincidental that half of Americans pay taxes and half of Americans vote in presidential elections? I think half of the American population does not have a stake in the political system so they don’t care to vote. I thinks tax reform in the US is needed and would help the voting turnout.
Everyone who let a fucked up idiot (let me spell it out for you in case you don't get it: I'm talking about Bush jr) violate international laws and send military to murder civilians, then yes it's blood on your hands. |
Great. If you insist I am a murderer then I demand you give me a humanitarian award for this:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/01/world.aids.day/
| It's an ideaologic war that morons in USA believe can be waged with guns. That's another major FAIL. USA kept swinging it's dick in the Middle East. Al Quaida decided to stomp on it by hitting strategic targets like WTC, Pentagon, and presumably the White House (too bad the didn't succeed, the would/could have been rid of Bush). |
You really believe that Al Quaida would not have target Americans if we were not involved in the Middle East? Why don’t you and your country stay neutral just as they did in WWII. Wait, maybe not since Sweden sold iron ore to the Nazi’s to keep their war machine going.
| Instead of focussing their effort on how to effectively combat the injustices that feeds organizations like Al Quaida, USA responded with arms and thus gave Al Quaida a second victory. |
Again you seem to think that if the US were just nicer then everyone would love us. Nice utopia you live in.
| The only responsible thing is to remove any and all troops from Iraq, pronto. And start persecuting the previous administration for violations against human rights, international laws, Geneva Convention, etc. There's a shitload of dirty launrdy to take care of, and the last thing Obama should do is sweep it under the rug like with the illegal wire-taps. |
From your point of view isn’t President Obama just as culpable as President Bush?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 08:35:53 [Permalink]
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I'd rather have them be ignorant, and not vote, than ignorant and vote.
You're right, those that make the most money have the most to win by voting. Those who don't have as much understand that the system doesn't benefit them, so why bother.
Here's more on the tax thing:
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/04/who-pays-taxes |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 09:21:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
From the moment USA invaded Iraq, they were required by the Geneva Convetion to keep law and order. They still can't keep law and order, but murder civilians. Several hundred thousand civilians have been killed. Even if the current Iraqi police can't go a good job, they can surely do a better job than American troops. |
I question the use of the word "surely." Invoking the Geneva Convention suggests that our troops are obligated to stay until there isn't a hair of a doubt that Iraqi security can do a better job. So by that standard, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. The only solution, then, is to travel back in time and somehow prevent the invasion in the first place. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 09:46:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
From the moment USA invaded Iraq, they were required by the Geneva Convetion to keep law and order. They still can't keep law and order, but murder civilians. Several hundred thousand civilians have been killed. Even if the current Iraqi police can't go a good job, they can surely do a better job than American troops. |
I question the use of the word "surely." Invoking the Geneva Convention suggests that our troops are obligated to stay until there isn't a hair of a doubt that Iraqi security can do a better job. So by that standard, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. The only solution, then, is to travel back in time and somehow prevent the invasion in the first place.
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If there was any reason to think that the U.S. had some intention of making sure things were improved in Iraq, that would be the way to go. The record shows otherwise. Best to get out, investigate the crimes and see how to do better in the future, and establish some credibility for the U.S. government before they're allowed to be a part of the international community. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 12:03:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Al Quaida decided to stomp on it by hitting strategic targets like WTC, Pentagon, and presumably the White House (too bad the didn't succeed, the would/could have been rid of Bush). |
Just verifying you said that, nice... |
It may be hard for you to grasp, but many countries consider USA's foreign policies evil. And not just American government, but American corporations exploiting the third world without any real oversight, no checks for moral obligations.
People cheer for the other team. |
You're cheering for civilians to be killed, if you're okay with that, fine. No one here is actually cheering for Iraqi civilians to die. All discussion has been aimed at minimizing future civilian deaths and the best way of doing it.
| What time period are you talking about, here? |
The 80s. Pakistani monies were concentrated in the hands of religious conservatives at the time. The Americans (+ Saudis) funded the religious radicals as well, as a precondition for dependence on Pakistani intelligence to disperse the money, but also funded other interests (Massoud, etc). Further, radical Islamic elements have been prevalent in Middle Eastern politics for quite some time, at least since Europeans (and Americans some time later) and sliced up the region.
| 1. Why should I care if they think that? |
Because you live on planet Earth too? |
Sorry, don't care.
| I'd rather buy Chineese and North Korean products than American, just to see your economy faulter. |
You can do what you like.
| When you include America's constant pandering to Israel, despite its crimes against humanity in Gaza, then hell yes: it's true in general. |
By "in general," I mean that "American involvement is bad" is not true in the general case of American involvement in the Middle East -- i.e. there exist positives. Another example of a negative does not change this. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 12:08:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Also, does it seem coincidental that half of Americans pay taxes and half of Americans vote in presidential elections? I think half of the American population does not have a stake in the political system so they don’t care to vote. I thinks tax reform in the US is needed and would help the voting turnout. |
Just half pay taxes? o_O
| Why don’t you and your country stay neutral just as they did in WWII. Wait, maybe not since Sweden sold iron ore to the Nazi’s to keep their war machine going. |
What does that have to do with anything? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 12:18:03 [Permalink]
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@Gorgo -- to which corruption are you referring? I'm comfortable admitting it isn't democracy in the strictest sense, but no one can really respond to a nonspecific criticism.
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That would take a while. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Collateral murder? Looks like it.
