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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 11:03:26 [Permalink]
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Dave, our arguments are becoming circular. I think this is one that we are going to have to agree to disagree on.
What I have learned from this exchange is why this subject is so polarizing for the whole country. I think that you and I are a pretty good representation of the common everyman. Me being a practical man tells me that something needs to be done. The news reports I have read and seen have me convinced that there is a real problem going on there. You being more philosophical about rights and skeptical about the intentions of those making and enforcing the laws have you willing to leave it alone.
This is the major philosophical difference. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2010 : 11:39:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I can agree with you that maybe these issues need to be defined better. The law does state that there must be lawful contact before anything can be done by law enforcement.
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Lawful contact being? This also seems an issue needing better qualifiers to me. I actually missed that one when typing the issues I had with the law as it is. And what Dave W. said.
It seems to me that "maybe need to be defined better" should be a huge warning light for you. Especially in America, with a police force that isn't actually unfamiliar with problems with racial profiling and the like. They may seem trivial items to you, but these bad definitions actually make the difference between it being a law designed to ensure the safety of all people in the state, versus one that is designed to target specific subgroups. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 11:44:05 [Permalink]
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Stephen Colbert and undocumented workers issue challenge to Americans: Take Our Jobs.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Me being a practical man tells me that something needs to be done. The news reports I have read and seen have me convinced that there is a real problem going on there. |
What's the problem? What do you think undocumented workers are to blame for, exactly? And what problems will deporting them solve? What problems will deporting them create? Why do you think deporting them is the only way to "do something" about these perceived problems?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 12:00:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Stephen Colbert and undocumented workers issue challenge to Americans: Take Our Jobs.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Me being a practical man tells me that something needs to be done. The news reports I have read and seen have me convinced that there is a real problem going on there. |
What's the problem? What do you think undocumented workers are to blame for, exactly? And what problems will deporting them solve? What problems will deporting them create? Why do you think deporting them is the only way to "do something" about these perceived problems?
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I'm sorry I am not able to cite sources at this time but my understanding is that it is not undocumented workers that are the problem but the huge amount of robberies and violent crimes that are getting so far out of control. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 14:30:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Which basically means that the police can't violate the Fourth Amendment by searching houses or cars for illegal aliens without a warrant. But a cop walking through a music festival or a open farm market can have "legal contact" with everyone similarly walking around in public, just by saying "hi."
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If you read further in the text it specifically says that to stop a person they need to have a reasonable cause to do so other than suspician of being illegal such as trespassing, speeding etc. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 14:32:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
]Is it? I have yet to see evidence of this. And by "crime," the data would have to predate this new law, which makes being an illegal immigrant a crime (in other words, as soon as the law goes into effect, 100% of illegal immigrants will be committing crimes in Arizona |
They are already committing a federal crime. The AZ law does not make them criminals, being here illegally does. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 14:57:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Dave, our arguments are becoming circular. I think this is one that we are going to have to agree to disagree on. |
I'm not willing to give up so easily.What I have learned from this exchange is why this subject is so polarizing for the whole country. I think that you and I are a pretty good representation of the common everyman. Me being a practical man tells me that something needs to be done. The news reports I have read and seen have me convinced that there is a real problem going on there. You being more philosophical about rights and skeptical about the intentions of those making and enforcing the laws have you willing to leave it alone.
This is the major philosophical difference. |
Well, you're wrong about my end. There is a real problem, but the new law is a bad solution. Saying that doesn't mean I'm willing to keep the status quo, saying that means that I think a different solution needs to be found.
The new law is as broad as possible, which means it will snare the maximum possible number of law-abiding U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, along with however many illegal immigrants it might catch. For a pro-small-government person like yourself, the new law should be seen as an insane over-reaction.
Look, right now police need probable cause to pull a person over on suspicion of drunk driving and detain a person until a BAC can be reasonably established. This new law, which doesn't require probable cause for detention, is like saying that the police should be able to (no wait, have to) administer field sobriety tests or breathalyzer tests to everyone they pull over, since any poor or illegal driving could indicate an intoxicated driver.
In other words, there are going to be thousands of useless calls placed to Federal Immigration offices to determine the legal status of legal immigrants and actual U.S. citizens, wasting many thousands of hours of police, Federal, and ordinary Joes' time. 'Cause the people whose status is being verified aren't going to be able to go about their normal days while that verification is being done. They (and the cops) are going to be standing around, waiting.
It is a maximal incursion upon the individual liberties of law-abiding people.
Now, you're trying to portray this as a response to a clear-and-present danger of "robberies and violent crimes" committed by these illegal aliens. For the sake of discussion, I'll take this as true for right now.
But as above, the vast majority of people who are going to be checked for their immigration status will be legal. They aren't going to be checking only violent criminals, but anyone who tries to get some day labor behind the 7-11. The law is written so that anyone who gives the cops "reasonable suspicion" that they might have an immigration status problem will have to be checked. And ordinary citizens are being given the right to sue if individual law-enforcement agents or entire police departments decline to bring the full weight of Federal law down on everyone that's reasonably suspicious.
If violent crimes are the real problem, why does the enacted solution not focus on them?
Who was it who spoke of curtailing liberty in exchange for a little more security? I forget, but I know "security theater" when I see it. This law seems an awful lot like the liquid limit for carry-on bags on airline flights. It inconveniences the most people, with the least effectiveness. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 14:59:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
If you read further in the text it specifically says that to stop a person they need to have a reasonable cause to do so other than suspician of being illegal such as trespassing, speeding etc. |
No, they need probable cause to arrest a person. But cops routinely "detain" people for long periods without actually arresting them. What do you think is going to happen if the police think they have a "reasonable suspicion" to check someone's status? They're not going to let the person go before the checks are complete. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 15:04:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
They are already committing a federal crime. The AZ law does not make them criminals, being here illegally does. |
The AZ law puts them in violation of AZ law. State police generally do not have jurisdiction to enforce Federal laws. With the new law, all the state and local police get to enforce a state law, because the illegal immigrants will suddenly be in violation of state law as well as Federal law.
Edited to add: besides, E-bone wasn't talking about violations of immigration law, he was talking about "robberies and violent crimes." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 15:27:57 [Permalink]
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| I'm not willing to give up so easily. |
Good. I found that I was repeating myself. I haven't given up, I just had nothing new to add.
Well, you're wrong about my end. There is a real problem, but the new law is a bad solution. Saying that doesn't mean I'm willing to keep the status quo, saying that means that I think a different solution needs to be found.
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Sorry for assuming you were willing to just let it go.
The new law is as broad as possible, which means it will snare the maximum possible number of law-abiding U.S. citizens and legal immigrants, along with however many illegal immigrants it might catch. For a pro-small-government person like yourself, the new law should be seen as an insane over-reaction.
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I have no problem with it snaring as many illegals as possible. I think that simply having a valid drivers license, green card, or SS card as proof of residency is just fine. I would have to present my drivers license if I was pulled over anyway. Sure some forgers will get through but they will be caught up with in time.
In other words, there are going to be thousands of useless calls placed to Federal Immigration offices to determine the legal status of legal immigrants and actual U.S. citizens, wasting many thousands of hours of police, Federal, and ordinary Joes' time. 'Cause the people whose status is being verified aren't going to be able to go about their normal days while that verification is being done. They (and the cops) are going to be standing around, waiting.
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I don't see why it should be so difficult to verify residency if a person is carrying proper ID like everyone should be anyway. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 07/09/2010 16:06:13 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 16:38:01 [Permalink]
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Because you can get a real, non-fake, non-forged drivers license and social security card with nothing more than an easily forged birth certificate. Hell, you can even get a legit birth certificate in the mail. All you have to do is fill out a request form for any city hall (mostly available online now), pay a small fee, and they will print up, seal, and notarize an official birth certificate from anyone they have on file and mail it out to you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 17:01:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Because you can get a real, non-fake, non-forged drivers license and social security card with nothing more than an easily forged birth certificate. Hell, you can even get a legit birth certificate in the mail. All you have to do is fill out a request form for any city hall (mostly available online now), pay a small fee, and they will print up, seal, and notarize an official birth certificate from anyone they have on file and mail it out to you.
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Dude, you've got too many what-if's going on in your argument.
The percentage people actually taking the time and energy to do that would be small.
Sounds like youv'e got the system down pat though. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 19:46:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Sorry for assuming you were willing to just let it go. |
No sweat.| I have no problem with it snaring as many illegals as possible. |
Is it worth hassling ten innocent people for each illegal that's caught? How about a hundred, or a thousand? Examples like McCarthy, Richard Reid and the Beltway snipers show that it's quite easy for things to go waaaay too far, to the point where liberties are stripped away with few or none of the intended effects at all.| I think that simply having a valid drivers license, green card, or SS card as proof of residency is just fine. I would have to present my drivers license if I was pulled over anyway. Sure some forgers will get through but they will be caught up with in time. |
The Arizona legislature and Governor feel differently than you do:THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). So a license check isn't good enough, period. Interestingly enough, 8 USC Section 1373 only says this:(c) Obligation to respond to inquiries
The Immigration and Naturalization Service shall respond to an inquiry by a Federal, State, or local government agency, seeking to verify or ascertain the citizenship or immigration status of any individual within the jurisdiction of the agency for any purpose authorized by law, by providing the requested verification or status information. So the INS is obliged to respond, but the cited law contains no time limits or any other constraints which might protect the innocent.| I don't see why it should be so difficult to verify residency if a person is carrying proper ID like everyone should be anyway. |
As above, what a person might be carrying is moot. The law doesn't even suggest that a green card is valid proof of status. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 07:34:22 [Permalink]
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| As above, what a person might be carrying is moot. The law doesn't even suggest that a green card is valid proof of status. |
Is what I am understanding is that the only way to verify is through Immigration and Naturalization.
Shit either needs to be simplified or a staff from Im and Nat need to be stationed in AZ. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 08:30:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Dude
Because you can get a real, non-fake, non-forged drivers license and social security card with nothing more than an easily forged birth certificate. Hell, you can even get a legit birth certificate in the mail. All you have to do is fill out a request form for any city hall (mostly available online now), pay a small fee, and they will print up, seal, and notarize an official birth certificate from anyone they have on file and mail it out to you.
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Dude, you've got too many what-if's going on in your argument.
The percentage people actually taking the time and energy to do that would be small.
Sounds like youv'e got the system down pat though.
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You are completely wrong. A guy I went to school with, and still know quite well, does this shit for people for a fee. You have $200? Guess what, you can have a "real" birth certificate with detailed instructions (in Spanish and a couple other languages) of how to turn that into a SSN/card and a real driver's license. Contractors here locally (the ones who grab guys from home depot in the morning for cash day labor) send their good regular workers to this guy.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Governor reveals new AZ police uniform
