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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2010 : 09:23:24
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An idea that has captivated me over the last number of years is the concept of "Mana". I have been having a difficult time finding a definition that matches my understanding of the word. This is what wikipedia has to say about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana I am mostly concentrating on the Polynesian idea of it which is defined on wikipedia as
In Polynesian culture (for example, Hawaiian and M#257;ori), mana is a spiritual quality considered to have supernatural origin – a sacred impersonal force existing in the universe. Therefore to have mana is to have influence and authority, and efficacy – the power to perform in a given situation. This essential quality of mana is not limited to persons – peoples, governments, places and inanimate objects can possess mana. In Hawaiian, mana loa means "great power". There are two ways to obtain mana: through birth and through warfare. People or objects that possess mana are accorded "respect"; because their possession of mana gives them "authority", "power", and "prestige". In M#257;ori, a tribe that has mana whenua is considered to have demonstrated their authority over a given piece of land or territory. The word’s meaning is complex because mana is a basic foundation of the Polynesian worldview.
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My understanding of the word which comes from reading the works of the 19th century Hawaiian historians David Malo, Samuel Kamakau, John Papa I'i,and (King) David Kalakau and also from my spending time with Hawaiian musicians has never really included anything "supernatural" about the idea. Maybe I just bypassed any supernatural connotations that were set forth.
My understanding of Mana is as follows: When referring to a person i.e." The chief had great mana" I see it as either a great charisma or great strength. This definition is in line with I have been learning.
When used for refering to plants, animals, the land (aina), or inatimate objects I understand it to be an energy or a life force that eminates from that particular subject. This definition I am having a hard time finding anything that corresponds with my understanding.
Even though I am hardcore Atheist I can feel mana. I can feel it when I am surfing. There is something about the energy of the wave that I think is possible could be having some sort of physiological effect on my body (becoming one with the wave maybe?). There are also other times that I can feel it i.e. the other weekend when we were planting trees there were a couple of hours that I was completely alone in the forest and I could feel the energy affecting me.
My critical mind realizes that it is most likely endorphines being released in my body that give me these feelings.
So after all of this babbling comes my question.
Is it possible that mana is actually an energy that could be scientifically studied?
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 11:30:25 [Permalink]
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| You do realize there is this thing called adreneline right? Your brain can release a few other pleasure inducing/mind altering chemicals as well in intense situations such as surfing. Why not start here and work your way up to mana. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 11:45:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
You do realize there is this thing called adreneline right? Your brain can release a few other pleasure inducing/mind altering chemicals as well in intense situations such as surfing. Why not start here and work your way up to mana.
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Yes I do. I acknowledged the fact in my O.P. I am merely questioning whether this phenomenon could be some sort of energy transfer that can be scientifically measured. Maybe it's not, I don't know. Thats why I'm asking.
The main thing that makes me even question this is that it is only western definitions that call mana "supernatural". From the direct Hawaiian sources it seems to be more of a natural phenomenon. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 11:52:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
[quote]
Yes I do. I acknowledged the fact in my O.P. I am merely questioning whether this phenomenon could be some sort of energy transfer that can be scientifically measured. Maybe it's not, I don't know. Thats why I'm asking.
The main thing that makes me even question this is that it is only western definitions that call mana "supernatural". From the direct Hawaiian sources it seems to be more of a natural phenomenon.
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What science or evidence is there that it exists at all? I wonder. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
| Edited by - sailingsoul on 05/06/2010 11:53:19 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 11:59:50 [Permalink]
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| What science or evidence is there that it exists at all? I wonder. SS |
Exactly. I think this concept may have been overlooked by the scientific community.
Here are some of my thoughts. Keep in mind that the closest I've ever come to being a scientist is that fact that I figured out how to make a bong out of potato.
I think it is well established that everything has energy or at least potential energy. Could this energy be either transfered to other things or percieved by humans? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 12:42:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I think it is well established that everything has energy or at least potential energy. Could this energy be either transfered to other things or percieved by humans? |
When you run head-first into a brick wall, you will perceive your kinetic energy being transformed into heat and noise. When you sunbathe, you can feel the heat energy from the Sun.
What you're trying to come up with is a currently unknown form of energy which isn't predicted to exist by any scientific theory, and which can't be detected or measured (not least because it's so vaguely defined) by anyone independent of human brain chemistry, while all known forms of energy can be detected and measured by unthinking machines. As soon as evidence can be presented that something which isn't prone to self-delusion can detect this energy, then we might be on the road to discovering a new form of energy. Until then, there's no reason to think it exists.
So the answer to this question...| Is it possible that mana is actually an energy that could be scientifically studied? |
...is "no" and "yes." "No" because what you really mean just doesn't exist, but "yes" because what causes the feelings associated with "mana" is nothing more than ordinary brain chemistry under extraordinary conditions, something which has been studied for decades. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2010 : 13:38:41 [Permalink]
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| I hear what you are saying Dave. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 17:39:43 [Permalink]
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He is saying that you should smoke less pot.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 19:08:58 [Permalink]
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Mana as detailed by Polynesian cultures is a bit more complex than just strength or power.
Here's where I expect to lose you because the concepts have no meaning for you.
Mana is a measure of the forces of nature swirling around you and through you and how your soul focuses them to perform feats of strength or inspire others to accept your leadership. All of this is tied to the polytheistic structure of their native religions.
Mana cannot exist without religion. This is due to the perception of the outside world viewed through the lens of religion.
Now, what you feel during surfing is the force of the waves imparting delta v to your board, adrenaline makes you acutely aware of the position your body is in and the subtle adjustments you are making to stay on top of it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 20:53:04 [Permalink]
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Speaking for myself, you are a trip Ebone4rock. I am enjoying your OP topics/ threads. Both questioning reality and inquiring thoughts. Oh, to being young. Trust me, it has NO bearing to age but does to thinking, outlook and attitude. The difference between an ordeal and an adventure is attitude, I've heard and agree. by Ebone4rock,,
Keep in mind that the closest I've ever come to being a scientist is that fact that I figured out how to make a bong out of potato. |
You might make a good engineer and realize that it does not directly relate to being an scientist. If so, that puts you two steps ahead of at least a few college certified nuts engineers out there making public comments. Let's face it, with at least tens of thousands of certified engineer's in the US alone, them numbers alone demand that some have no clue in and outside of their fields of training. There are some who are dumber than dog shit, especially when they use the Bible as a reference science book.
by Ebone4rock,,
Exactly. I think this concept may have been overlooked by the scientific community. |
I doubt that greatly, that it has been over looked. (my opinion) The US and Russian governments, just to name two, even today spend a tonne of money to explore every pebble on the beach of reality and in the land of woo, to provide a possible military edge wherever possible.
Energy is very misunderstood by most, as suggested by your comment. The ignorance of people is profitably exploited by charlatans at every opportunity, whether they exploit it for the marketing of medical cures, like with magnets, homeopathic medicines or the promise of connecting people with loved ones after death, to name three. The belief in spirits is wrongly attributed by some, with the ignorance of what energy is and what happens to the energy embodied by a person after death.
by dude,,
He is saying that you should smoke less pot. |
Advice always applies to some, way more than to others. Cheers SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 04:29:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Mana as detailed by Polynesian cultures is a bit more complex than just strength or power.
Here's where I expect to lose you because the concepts have no meaning for you.
Mana is a measure of the forces of nature swirling around you and through you and how your soul focuses them to perform feats of strength or inspire others to accept your leadership. All of this is tied to the polytheistic structure of their native religions.
Mana cannot exist without religion. This is due to the perception of the outside world viewed through the lens of religion.
Now, what you feel during surfing is the force of the waves imparting delta v to your board, adrenaline makes you acutely aware of the position your body is in and the subtle adjustments you are making to stay on top of it.
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Yes, any definition I come across seems incomplete. It is a very difficult concept to articulate. I am still trying to understand it.
I disagree that mana cannot exist without religion. This sounds like a great subject to debate. I'm going to think about this a little longer to come up with a good argument. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 06:06:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Speaking for myself, you are a trip Ebone4rock. I am enjoying your OP topics/ threads. Both questioning reality and inquiring thoughts. Oh, to being young. Trust me, it has NO bearing to age but does to thinking, outlook and attitude. The difference between an ordeal and an adventure is attitude, I've heard and agree. |
Well thanks SS. I have been enjoying posting here the past few weeks. It's nice to have other people to bounce my ideas off of. I do not have this opportunity in real life.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 10:53:59 [Permalink]
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Valiant Dancer,
If you don't mind sharing I would like to ask what your background is in the study of Polynesian history/religion/philosophy.
I am just a simple haole boy who has been fortunate enough to be able to spend a couple of weeks a year in Hawaii. From my first trip there 5 years ago I became enamored with the culture. The subject has now become somewhat of an obsession. My perspective is that of an outsider trying to understand a people who are very different from me. The majority of my knowledge comes from the many $'s I have spent at the Bishop Museum on books, spending time with musicians such as Rev. Dennis Kamakahi, The Makaha Sons, and a young duo called Kupaoa, and visiting museums and culturally significant places (i.e. heiau) on Kauai. I find that the Hawaiian musicians seem to be the most educated about all things Polynesian. That is my perspective in a nutshell.
I would like to debate whether or not religion is necessary for mana to exist using the definition you provided. I will be using anecdotal evidence only...because that's all I have.
Mana is a measure of the forces of nature swirling around you and through you and how your soul focuses them to perform feats of strength or inspire others to accept your leadership. All of this is tied to the polytheistic structure of their native religions.
Mana cannot exist without religion. This is due to the perception of the outside world viewed through the lens of religion.
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When I am performing with my band (heavy metal) I can feel and use mana. I can feel the energy that is in the air from the audience and the pure power of the music collect inside me. When I release this energy to the audience it is very powerful. To this day I am still amazed at the power it gives me. It's like I can make the audience do whatever I want them to do. Anything that I direct them to do they will do (most times) i.e. raising their fists in the air, shouting phrases such as "Hell yeah!" or whatever.
Using your definition this sure sounds like mana to me. No religion required.
Thoughts? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2010 : 06:05:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Anything that I direct them to do they will do (most times) i.e. raising their fists in the air, shouting phrases such as "Hell yeah!" or whatever.
Using your definition this sure sounds like mana to me. No religion required. |
Sounds like group psychology to me.
And as a former hobby musician, I've shared your on-stage experience (but without ascribing any supernatural phenomena, like mana, to it).
Bad experiences has taught me to distrust and fear "unruly" crowds, but the moment I'm standing on stage, something else happens. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2010 : 09:27:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Using your definition this sure sounds like mana to me. |
Are you sure you guys don't mean mania?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2010 : 09:52:32 [Permalink]
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| Sounds like group psychology to me. |
Yes it is. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Mana
