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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2010 : 05:53:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Now your venturing in a whole different territory, which is not just this blockade. The palestinians have been bombing innocent Israeli civilians as well. They have their own repsonsibility their. Yes, you may be weaker than your bully and therefore only punched his five-year old sister in the face after he punched you. And he may have retaliated to that by calling some friends who punched your mother and father in the face. After which you and your weaker friends retaliated by going after his other, 7-year old sister. In the whole conflict the palestinians have continuously acted out their own terroristic attacks, just as the Israelis have. Just because the Israelis are stronger, doesn't mean that the Palestinians are suddenly absolved of the responsibility for their own actions in shooting missiles and placing bombs.
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See, this is maturely addressing a point, so I'll try to use your behavior here as a guide.
Are you a pacifist then? Is Satyagraha the answer here? If shoved into an untenable situation one shouldn't kick below the belt, right? I agree. That doesn't take away from the fact the Israel is the aggressor. They drove the Palestinians out of their own country, they have been killing Palestinians by the thousands and driving them out of their homes by the thousands, and the few people that are killed by the Palestinians are somehow enough to keep all the children of Gaza in a prison. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 06:39:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
See, this is maturely addressing a point, so I'll try to use your behavior here as a guide.
Are you a pacifist then? Is Satyagraha the answer here? If shoved into an untenable situation one shouldn't kick below the belt, right? |
I'm not a pacifist. However, I do recognize that when I shoot somebody else, I cannot use "he did it first" as a defense. In some cases, violence can be necessary.
To take an example, in WWII the resistence movements in Europe often targeted either military targets or people complicit in the aid of the German forces. In these cases I would say that the violence would be justified. During the same time, both Germany and the allied forces bombed whole cities to break morale of the population. These people were not directly complicit in the war. I find this a lot harder (if not impossible) to justify.
| I agree. That doesn't take away from the fact the Israel is the aggressor. They drove the Palestinians out of their own country, they have been killing Palestinians by the thousands and driving them out of their homes by the thousands, and the few people that are killed by the Palestinians are somehow enough to keep all the children of Gaza in a prison. |
Looking at the current situation, I would tend to agree. However, this still doesn't justify the Palestinians in bombing innocent Israeli civilians. We should convict Israel for the wrongs it commits and be working towards ensurances that they won't perform those actions in the future. But this shouldn't lead us to excuse the violence Palestinians commit towards the Israelis, which they do.
Especially when looking at the whole sordid history of Israel since 1948 and even before that, what you basically see is a continuous history of revenge attacks upon revenge attacks upon revenge attacks. To just unilaterally declare Palestinians the victims ignores this history and will not help us arriving at a solution. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 06:47:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I really have no idea what kind of thing you're arguing here, Tom. Are you saying that if these people were saying they were just on a vacation to Gaza, and they had just pulled into the shores of Gaza and some Israeli yelled something about inspecting their ships, and you saw on their web site that they knew exactly what they were getting into, but they were complaining they didn't know, then yes, I guess what you're saying would have some relevance. Otherwise, it doesn't.
It doesn't matter what they knew, Israel committed a major international crime. No one else is to blame for that. No. One. Smearing the victims by saying it's their responsiblity only supports the crimes of the Israelis. |
??? Where did I say that. This is making conversation quite hard for me, that you don't seem to react to what I actually say. Maybe you should read what I wrote again?
| And no one, I mean no one, should suspect that Israel would attack a ship so far into international waters. |
IHH website says differently. Does it matter that they only expected the attack inside Israeli or Palestinian territory? Do you think they would have stopped just in front of that territory? I don't.
| But even if they were prepared for that attack, even thought it likely that it might happen, then that puts none of the blame or the responsiblity for the attack on the victims, and you cannot say that the victims "provoked" the attack. |
The responsibility for the attack, no. But they did provoke it. They went in, knowing that Israel would see this as a provocation but went in anyway. Again, how is this not a provocation?
I've said it just about every way that I can think of saying it, and of course I'm now more convinced that the Israelis have won.
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Why? Because I recognize that the volunteers have their own responsibility. Why do you think the Israelis have won. I really don't get your reasoning here.
Have I said the Israelis were correct in their actions? No. Have I said they shouldn't be called on their behavior? No. How have the Israelis won, Gorgo? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 07:21:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Why? Because I recognize that the volunteers have their own responsibility.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 07:22:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
But the volunteers knowingly entered into a situation that might have a fatal outcome and their is every indication that they were aware of this risk. And that was their own decision and thus their own responsibility, they cannot pass that of as someone elses.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 07:26:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Heh. I thought it was clear, but I guess it wasn't clear enough so that EVEN Gorgo could understand it. It really is rather hard to dumb it down any further for him.
It seems it is difficult for those caught up in the noise and the fury to take a step back and look at the situation from a broader perspective. You can usually tell this is happening when people start proclaiming "us or them," dichotomous, polarizing, false alternative positions.
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Yesterday, when things were slow around here, I was going to jump in for shits and grins, but things really ramped up (at my work) and others were doing a fine job at debating Gorgo. I wouldn't have added anything to the mix. I've spectated his posts in the past and noticed the black/white dichotomy that colors his viewpoints. Not worth my time to get into SIWOTI. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 08:08:28 [Permalink]
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http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2010/05/31/fnc-s-krauthammer-argues-gaza-bound-ships-intended-provocation-israel
Yeah, this is not about humanitarian aid, it's about provoking an incident. Where's the problem?
Blaming the victim. Right wing smears.
| KRAUTHAMMER: I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that the U.S. has not joined the lynch mob at the U.N. attacking Israel on this and thus far have held off. I hope it will exercise a veto if it has to because Israel clearly is a victim here. If these people had wanted humanitarian aid, Israel offered to take the ships into Haifa, peacefully, unload all the stuff inside and to allow all the humanitarian aid immediately into Gaza, all the food and medicine. And it was refused because it was meant to be a provocation and to create an incident. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 08:59:00 [Permalink]
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| Well just because most or all of them might have had good intentions with the aid and they didnt intend to get killed by commandos doesn't mean it wasnt a provocative act, if you try to walk past the bouncer without getting searched and ignore his warnings, you had better expect to get bounced. Not to mention it is no secret that Isreal is a mean bouncer. Both sides ended up in the wrong on this one, long term, Isreal's position will suffer more from it though. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 09:31:43 [Permalink]
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I hope I'm wrong, but from the way things look, no one is going to force Israel to change a damn thing. They may come up with some half-ass negotiations that strangle the Palestinians worse, but other than that... Again, not good at predicting, just saying the way things look now.
Papa, I guess the question I have is why is it necessary to say these people are responsible for something (what I don't understand) and that they provoked something (what I don't understand). Why is it necessary to say that? What changes about the situation? What do we learn from that? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 09:46:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
And the bully feels he has a legitimate reason to stand in front of my door. I'm not saying that the bully is correct, but he feels that way nevertheless.
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Emotion does not change reality. He may feel taunted, but I am not taunting him. I am going about my business. That is the point of defying the sanctions, to go about your business in defiance of the criminal. If the criminal responds, that is what the criminal does, not what I do. I have no control over criminals. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 09:50:33 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, if you want a serious discussion with me, don't quotemine. Read my whole posts, in context. I'll happily go back to insulting if this is the kind of behaviour you apparently prefer.
Thanks. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 09:54:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Gorgo, if you want a serious discussion with me, don't quotemine. Read my whole posts, in context. I'll happily go back to insulting if this is the kind of behaviour you apparently prefer.
Thanks.
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Not sure which quotemine you're referring to. If it's about the responsiblity posts, the point was to tell you that it was you that was talking about responsility, and you say, "when did I say that?" You said it in the same post where you asked it. Not saying I understand what it means, and maybe I should have made that more clear. I don't understand what you're talking about. See my note to Papa Smurf.
In other words, please clarify what it is when you say, "responsibility" in reference to the protestors, and why you said "when did I say that?"
If you're talking about something else, please let me know. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/08/2010 09:56:17 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:03:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I hope I'm wrong, but from the way things look, no one is going to force Israel to change a damn thing. They may come up with some half-ass negotiations that strangle the Palestinians worse, but other than that... Again, not good at predicting, just saying the way things look now.
Papa, I guess the question I have is why is it necessary to say these people are responsible for something (what I don't understand) |
Because they are responsible for their own actions. Nobody forced them to set sail towards Israel, knowing that they would probably meet with violent reaction.
Again, because this keeps being the part that you seem to be missing (I don't know, do your eyes start to glaze over as soon as you see the word responsibility in connection to the flotilla?), this does not negate that Israeli commandos are responsible for shooting innocent people. But those people are themselves responsible for venturing into dangerous territory.
| and that they provoked something (what I don't understand). |
I generally hate argument by dictionary, but here:
Provoke:
1. To incite to anger or resentment.
2. To stir to action or feeling.
3. To give rise to; evoke: provoke laughter.
4. To bring about deliberately; induce: provoke a fight.
Actions of the flotilla satisfy 2, 3 and 4.
| Why is it necessary to say that? |
Because that is what happened.
| What changes about the situation? |
Nothing. So why do you get so hung up on this?
| What do we learn from that? |
What is their to learn. One group of people says "don't do this or we'll shoot." Other group of people says "we'll do it anyway." First group of people starts shooting. Not exactly rocket science, right?
Why do you deny that people have their own responsibility in the actions they take. Why do you want to diminish the actions of the volunteers that way? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:05:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I hope I'm wrong, but from the way things look, no one is going to force Israel to change a damn thing. They may come up with some half-ass negotiations that strangle the Palestinians worse, but other than that... Again, not good at predicting, just saying the way things look now.
Papa, I guess the question I have is why is it necessary to say these people are responsible for something (what I don't understand) and that they provoked something (what I don't understand). Why is it necessary to say that? What changes about the situation? What do we learn from that?
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Because it did not happen in a vacuum, why ignore those facts? What is to be gained by ignoring thier actions except to paint the Isrealis in an even worse light or to pretend that the dead had no faults? I'm not here to glorify fools, make martyrs or excuse the Isreali behavior. They were not chosen at random and gunned down in cold blood, they DID provoke, they DID know the likely response and they DID fight back enough where soldiers may have felt the need to defend themselves.
I don't beleive the Isrealis wanted to kill anyone, however they put their soldiers into a situation where a conflict was a high probability, the decision to drop commandos from helicopters was a terrible one, the ship could have been stopped without a person to person intersession. To expect the Isrealis to suddenly wake up and have a national epiphiny towards their treatment of the Palisinians is just silly, their behaviors are predictable and should come as a surprise to no one. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:12:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Emotion does not change reality. |
But emotion forms reality nonetheless.
| He may feel taunted, but I am not taunting him. |
Yet he feels that way nonetheless.
| I am going about my business. |
Which makes him feel taunted and provokes him into action.
| That is the point of defying the sanctions, to go about your business in defiance of the criminal. |
And getting punched in the nose because of that. Just as his emotions do not change reality, the same way your belief that you shouldn't be punched in the nose doesn't change his feelings either. And that has an effect in reality. Hence, his emotion have changed reality and we're back to square one.
If the criminal responds, that is what the criminal does, not what I do. I have no control over criminals.
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But you can predict their response. I'll hold the criminal accountable for his actions. I'll also ask you "why did you go that way instead of another." I may agree with your actions, but the decision to go the way you went was yours, not anybody elses. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Israeli blockade incident
