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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:16:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Because they are responsible for their own actions. Nobody forced them to set sail towards Israel, knowing that they would probably meet with violent reaction.
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Why is it important to point this out when we're talking about murder? No one made the Israelis murder their victims. What you're saying mitigates their responsibility.
Again, because this keeps being the part that you seem to be missing (I don't know, do your eyes start to glaze over as soon as you see the word responsibility in connection to the flotilla?), this does not negate that Israeli commandos are responsible for shooting innocent people. But those people are themselves responsible for venturing into dangerous territory.
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So, they caused their own death?
| and that they provoked something (what I don't understand). |
I generally hate argument by dictionary, but here:
Provoke:
1. To incite to anger or resentment.
2. To stir to action or feeling.
3. To give rise to; evoke: provoke laughter.
4. To bring about deliberately; induce: provoke a fight.
Actions of the flotilla satisfy 2, 3 and 4.
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So, what you're saying is that they caused their own death. They made Israel mad, the protestors made Israel murder the protestors.
How is that not blaming the victim for Israel's choice to commit murder?
Why is it necessary to s
ay that? |
Because that is what happened. |
| What changes about the situation? |
Nothing. So why do you get so hung up on this?
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I'm the one that's hung up on something and you're the one that is saying something repeatedly that has no bearing on the subject at all? Please explain. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:19:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Gorgo
I hope I'm wrong, but from the way things look, no one is going to force Israel to change a damn thing. They may come up with some half-ass negotiations that strangle the Palestinians worse, but other than that... Again, not good at predicting, just saying the way things look now.
Papa, I guess the question I have is why is it necessary to say these people are responsible for something (what I don't understand) and that they provoked something (what I don't understand). Why is it necessary to say that? What changes about the situation? What do we learn from that?
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Because it did not happen in a vacuum, why ignore those facts? What is to be gained by ignoring thier actions except to paint the Isrealis in an even worse light or to pretend that the dead had no faults? I'm not here to glorify fools, make martyrs or excuse the Isreali behavior. They were not chosen at random and gunned down in cold blood, they DID provoke, they DID know the likely response and they DID fight back enough where soldiers may have felt the need to defend themselves.
I don't beleive the Isrealis wanted to kill anyone, however they put their soldiers into a situation where a conflict was a high probability, the decision to drop commandos from helicopters was a terrible one, the ship could have been stopped without a person to person intersession. To expect the Isrealis to suddenly wake up and have a national epiphiny towards their treatment of the Palisinians is just silly, their behaviors are predictable and should come as a surprise to no one.
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Okay, you are saying it because you think that the Israelis were acting in self defense in some way, maybe they could have backed off a little, but they were being attacked. I don't know that that's even remotely what happened, but I understand your point in that context. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:20:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2010/05/31/fnc-s-krauthammer-argues-gaza-bound-ships-intended-provocation-israel
Yeah, this is not about humanitarian aid, it's about provoking an incident. Where's the problem?
Blaming the victim. Right wing smears.
| KRAUTHAMMER: I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that the U.S. has not joined the lynch mob at the U.N. attacking Israel on this and thus far have held off. I hope it will exercise a veto if it has to because Israel clearly is a victim here. If these people had wanted humanitarian aid, Israel offered to take the ships into Haifa, peacefully, unload all the stuff inside and to allow all the humanitarian aid immediately into Gaza, all the food and medicine. And it was refused because it was meant to be a provocation and to create an incident. |
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I'm going to jump in here for a moment to point out that Krauthhammer is full of shit. He's saying that the Israeli's are angels. That's ridiculous. He's saying that it's Israel who are the true victims here. That's ridiculous.
No one here is arguing his points. The idea that the word "provoke" means something bad, as he is using it, is not how I am using the term. The word "provoke" is neither good nor bad on its own.
His statements really are right wing spin and divorced from reality.
Just because a word pops up on both sides of this debate doesn't mean that, for example, I have used the word the way the right is using it. It doesn't mean I have been using right wing talking points.
The right wing has attacked the words liberal and progressive too. That doesn't mean that every time anyone refers to liberals or a progressives they mean it as a pejorative. Spin is spin. Our job is to cut through the bullshit and to not allow them to vilify words. If we do that, then we can be accused of buying into their bullshit...
Comment over. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:22:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
Emotion does not change reality. |
But emotion forms reality nonetheless.
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No, they don't even a little bit.
Now, again, if the protestors were telling us that they were duped into believing that they could bring that stuff to Gaza, and the Israelis would wave at them as they went by, then you could complain that they were being dishonest.
No, this crime is Isreal's responsibility totally. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:41:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Gorgo
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2010/05/31/fnc-s-krauthammer-argues-gaza-bound-ships-intended-provocation-israel
Yeah, this is not about humanitarian aid, it's about provoking an incident. Where's the problem?
Blaming the victim. Right wing smears.
| KRAUTHAMMER: I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that the U.S. has not joined the lynch mob at the U.N. attacking Israel on this and thus far have held off. I hope it will exercise a veto if it has to because Israel clearly is a victim here. If these people had wanted humanitarian aid, Israel offered to take the ships into Haifa, peacefully, unload all the stuff inside and to allow all the humanitarian aid immediately into Gaza, all the food and medicine. And it was refused because it was meant to be a provocation and to create an incident. |
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I'm going to jump in here for a moment to point out that Krauthhammer is full of shit. He's saying that the Israeli's are angels. That's ridiculous. He's saying that it's Israel who are the true victims here. That's ridiculous.
No one here is arguing his points. The idea that the word "provoke" means something bad, as he is using it, is not how I am using the term. The word "provoke" is neither good nor bad on its own.
His statements really are right wing spin and divorced from reality.
Just because a word pops up on both sides of this debate doesn't mean that, for example, I have used the word the way the right is using it. It doesn't mean I have been using right wing talking points.
The right wing has attacked the words liberal and progressive too. That doesn't mean that when anyone refers to liberals or a progressives they mean it as a pejorative. Spin is spin. Our job is to cut through the bullshit and to not allow them to vilify words. If we do that, then we can be accused of buying into their bullshit...
Comment over.
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Your usage of the term is either
(a) as Krauthammer's
(b) meaningless, at least in the context of talking about the incident.
(c) takes away some of the blame from Israel and puts it on the protesters.
(d)?????
(e)?????
(f) none of the above, a mystery of the ages |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 11:01:59 [Permalink]
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I have explained how I'm using the word. To some extent it's the same way as Krauthammer is using it, but he is placing a negative spin on the word and I'm not. The way Krauthammer is using it would also mean that everything Gandhi did to provoke a response from the British Imperialists was bad. Again, he's full of shit.
I could accuse you of buying into right wing talking points, Gorgo, because you have let them place a negative meaning on the word, and you are running with their meaning in this debate. But to me, provoking a response can be the desired outcome of a protest, as I have already explained.
Anyhow, that was my comment. Over and out... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 11:06:23 [Permalink]
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Okay, but you think getting hit with a billy club is a good thing  |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 12:00:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Of course, you're right about this. But the violations still keep adding up. |
We have a lot of "real life" police shows over here, and one thing that I find funny about normal police operations is that even after the cops have plenty of evidence that a suspect is trying to evade the police for cocaine possession or domestic abuse via a high-speed chase, the cops keep calling out "ran a red light" or "he's doing 80 in a 65 zone" just to rack up the violations. Compared to a felony criminal charge, traffic offenses are pretty minor. |
Yes, and ten dead blockade runners is just a piss in the ocean compared to the number of Palestinians who's been murdered by Israeli military actions in Gaza and Israel's blockade against humanitarian help. The difference is that this time, it's not (only) Palestinians getting murdered. This time it's Turkish citizens (wasn't there an American as well in the casualty list, I think I saw it mentioned or perhaps he was only injured) murdered, and other nationalities injured.
So the Cop-show analogy is missing some crucial elements. Now, countrymen of the injured party can chime in, in sympathy for the Palestinian cause and in outrage against the criminal acts of Israel. This is where there is a point in adding the charges.
It's a PR nightmare for Israel.
| If you want to add piracy to the list of offenses, that's fine by me. |
Well, on international waters, where they have no jurisdiction, they boarded ships of foreign nationality with arms. They captured the crew and held them detained under the threat of violence (that's at least kidnapping) and confiscated the boat and its cargo. What part of this does not conform with piracy? The Israelis didn't say "Argh! Argh! Pass me the grog!" and they didn't force non-violent crews to walk the plank. But they did murder in order to secure the boats and the cargo.
| I just think the list is already quite large and adding to it just makes more points to argue about instead of getting to the important bits (the plight of the Gazans) that the protesters were trying to emphasize. |
That may well be true. But this time the Israeli government they got their nose bloodied, propaganda-wise.
For the record, I'm not willing to take Israel's word that the IHH supports Hamas.
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How about your own Department of State?
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2010/06/142591.htm Has not been designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the United States/Cannot validate ties to Al-Qaida
| The only relevant part about that is that Israel has been saying since at least January that the IHH is a terrorist organization. In other words, regardless of whether Israel is right or wrong about the IHH and Hamas, they have made their position completely clear, and the IHH must have been aware of it for a long time before the flotilla sailed. |
I can't speak for them, but I'd hazard a guess that they thought sailing in a flotilla with many nationalities and several other relief-organizations (IHH was just the biggest one) would make a difference.
| I disagree with Gorgo on that. |
Well, that's good.| But I think that any blame that could be placed on the victim must not be held in defense of the perpetrator. |
Nobody here in this thread is trying to defend Israel in any way by saying that the IHH provoked Israel's criminal response. |
Gorgo seem to think most of us are. But I can't figure out how he can come to such a conclusion.
(edited spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/09/2010 11:59:23 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 12:57:27 [Permalink]
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When I first started reading this I pretty mush sided with most everyone that:
1) Israel was wrong and over-reacted.
2) The activists did provoke a response from Israel.....maybe not the one they got.....but provoked none the less.
But.....after reading all of Gorgo's replies I have decided:
To take Israel's Side!
Jesus Gorgo.....have you been this obtuse all along? |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 13:04:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Gorgo
I hope I'm wrong, but from the way things look, no one is going to force Israel to change a damn thing. They may come up with some half-ass negotiations that strangle the Palestinians worse, but other than that... Again, not good at predicting, just saying the way things look now.
Papa, I guess the question I have is why is it necessary to say these people are responsible for something (what I don't understand) and that they provoked something (what I don't understand). Why is it necessary to say that? What changes about the situation? What do we learn from that?
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Because it did not happen in a vacuum, why ignore those facts? What is to be gained by ignoring thier actions except to paint the Isrealis in an even worse light or to pretend that the dead had no faults? I'm not here to glorify fools, make martyrs or excuse the Isreali behavior. They were not chosen at random and gunned down in cold blood, they DID provoke, they DID know the likely response and they DID fight back enough where soldiers may have felt the need to defend themselves.
I don't beleive the Isrealis wanted to kill anyone, however they put their soldiers into a situation where a conflict was a high probability, the decision to drop commandos from helicopters was a terrible one, the ship could have been stopped without a person to person intersession. To expect the Isrealis to suddenly wake up and have a national epiphiny towards their treatment of the Palisinians is just silly, their behaviors are predictable and should come as a surprise to no one.
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Okay, you are saying it because you think that the Israelis were acting in self defense in some way, maybe they could have backed off a little, but they were being attacked. I don't know that that's even remotely what happened, but I understand your point in that context.
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PLEASE do not paraphrase me, you have clearly shown a total inability to do so accurately. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 13:28:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If a guy tries to stare down a rabid dog and gets mauled for his efforts, we'd generally call for euthanizing the dog while at the same time we'd tell the guy he's a dumbass. However, according to Gorgo, suggesting that the victim is in any way or amount responsible for his own injuries somehow lends support to the dog. |
This would seem like the moral of the story is to not start a fight unless you're willing to go to extremes necessary to win, but how could this be less blameworthy? This would inevitably lead to some degree of extra damage to innocent persons, which would be even more blameworthy (I prefer Ghandi to Che).
Of course, one could just allow injustice to continue without doing anything, but that certainly isn't blameless either, probably more so than risking yourself.
Another option, I suppose, would be to try to talk the bad actor out of doing what they're doing (yourself or with help from other actors), but if we have already decided to make the assumption that the actor is irrational and not open to discussion, this would be useless and essentially equivalent to doing nothing.
What, then, could be the best path?
| We all make that choice, whether to live under the limited freedoms available under the yoke of "the Man," or to break out from under it to try to get more freedom at risk of being punished for it. Slavery is an extreme and personal example of what everyone faces in day-to-day life. At the other end of the spectrum are minor things like spitting in public. How we got into the situation in which we find ourselves may or may not have been fair, but that's irrelevant to the fact that we choose to accept the risks that go along with breaking out of that situation. |
But how do we define which situations are the norm so that we know when someone is "breaking out"? If we suppose injustice is the norm, then any form of fighting it would be "breaking out" of the situation, and therefore be blameworthy. Why would we say aggression the norm?
Dave blames escaped slaves for getting themselves killed! (just kididng  ) |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 06/08/2010 13:48:12 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 14:19:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Ricky
Blaming the victim. The girl wasn't a goody two shoes. She was raped because she wore a mini skirt. |
The girl was raped because she wasn't wearing pants and she held up a big sign that said, "Come have sex with me!".
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I missed this before. This is part of the brutal mindset that I'm talking about. Even if people were asking to be shot, it's still murder, and these people were not asking to be shot. These people were not asking to be murdered in international waters. Once shot, they were not refusing medical treatment.
The Israelis have won.
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The world is a brutal place, Gorgo. Has been for millenia.
They opened fire on the Isrealis. Opening fire on a military ship is inviting return fire.
Again, heavy handed, yes. Typical of all nations with a Navy, yes.
By extension, you should also object to the US and other nations patroling in Somalia's international waters for pirates. After all, any boarding by those forces of pirate ships would be a violation of international law. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 14:26:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
By extension, you should also object to the US and other nations patroling in Somalia's international waters for pirates. After all, any boarding by those forces of pirate ships would be a violation of international law.
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I think international law says that blockades (or whatever force interrupting economic channels) are okay if the UN Security Council says it's okay. I assume this is approved in Somalia, so it isn't really a violation of international law.
http://uncharter.org/chapter/7 |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 06/08/2010 14:27:19 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 16:11:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
Emotion does not change reality. |
But emotion forms reality nonetheless.
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No, they don't even a little bit. |
They quite obviously do. People act on emotions, don't they? Therefore, emotions form reality. Emotions cause things to happen. Is this misreading again?
How do they not, Gorgo? If some guy feels the lawn is his, this quite obviously has repercussions in reality. Your broken nose attests to that. Beliefs form reality, because people act on beliefs.
Now, again, if the protestors were telling us that they were duped into believing that they could bring that stuff to Gaza, and the Israelis would wave at them as they went by, then you could complain that they were being dishonest.
No, this crime is Isreal's responsibility totally.
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No. Israel is responsible for it's actions of boarding the ships and for their commandos using excessive use of force.
IHH is responsible for being there in the first place, after Israel threatened them. It may be responsible for attacking Israeli commandos when they came on board, that will need to be investigated. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 06/08/2010 16:27:05 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 16:25:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Why is it important to point this out when we're talking about murder? |
Because reality matters. Because an accurate picture of events matters.
| No one made the Israelis murder their victims. What you're saying mitigates their responsibility. |
Sorry, but that is bullshit. How does it mitigate Israels responsibility Gorgo. How?
| So, they caused their own death? |
No, but as I keep saying again and again, they went to breach the blockade knowing that Israel would probably use force. And that was their own responsibility.
| So, what you're saying is that they caused their own death. |
No, this is not what I'm saying. I am saying that they willingly went into a situation that was likely to have a violent outcome. This is not "causing your own death", just as I don't think rock climbers cause their own death when they fall down.
| They made Israel mad, the protestors made Israel murder the protestors. |
They made Israel mad, knowing that this would probably have consequences. They went in knowing that. Or do you hold they did not, Gorgo?
| How is that not blaming the victim for Israel's choice to commit murder? |
Because generally "blaming the victim" has the connotation that the victim somehow deserves the fate it got and tries to diminish the suffering placed on those victims. I see nobody doing that here.
| I'm the one that's hung up on something and you're the one that is saying something repeatedly that has no bearing on the subject at all? Please explain. |
Now you're really not making sense anymore.
Does accurately pointing out reality matter? Yes. Will accurately pointing out reality on this forum change something about that reality? No. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Israeli blockade incident
