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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2010 : 04:09:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
This is a good read, but unfortunately, the author "smears" the victims by claiming they had an ulterior motive:Israel also claimed, almost laughably, that because the stated goal of the Free Gaza Movement was to break the blockade, the Mavi Marmara's voyage somehow wasn't really a humanitarian act. In fact, there is an exact parallel in the actions of the early lunch counter sit-ins of the U.S. civil rights movement: while the freedom workers may well have been hungry when they sat down, their goal was not to be served coffee but to end segregation. Of course the ship's voyage was a political act, repeated by the Rachel Corrie a few days later: to respond to Israel's politically-driven humanitarian catastrophe and to achieve a humanitarian goal - ending the crippling blockade of Gaza. Bolding mine. I expect Gorgo to complain that Phyllis Bennis is just repeating right-wing propaganda.
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You might wish to quote the paragraph where she uses the phrase "ulterior motive." I'm getting old and can't see as well. Of what I read, she is saying the opposite. Their motives were clear and honorable. Maybe you have special knowledge that their ulterior motive was to sell Amway distributorships, I don't know.
You continue, like Democrat Anthony Weiner to just regurgitate Israeli right-wing propaganda. There is no need to smear the victims with talk of blame or ulterior motives or provocation. This was only an act of war. It was murder on the high seas, and that's all you need to say about it.
Now Dave will probably continue to use my name without talking directly to me. (bolding mine) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/10/2010 04:17:33 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 04:22:03 [Permalink]
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| Now Dave will watch the neighbor boys from his bedroom window, wondering why he'll never have what they have. (bolding irrelevant) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 05:22:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
You might wish to quote the paragraph where she uses the phrase "ulterior motive." I'm getting old and can't see as well. Of what I read, she is saying the opposite. Their motives were clear and honorable. Maybe you have special knowledge that their ulterior motive was to sell Amway distributorships, I don't know.
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It's eaiser to see clearly without the rose-colored glasses. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 06:11:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Gorgo
You might wish to quote the paragraph where she uses the phrase "ulterior motive." I'm getting old and can't see as well. Of what I read, she is saying the opposite. Their motives were clear and honorable. Maybe you have special knowledge that their ulterior motive was to sell Amway distributorships, I don't know.
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It's eaiser to see clearly without the rose-colored glasses.
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Holy Shite! I saw this guy on the boat!!
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 06:52:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Gorgo
You might wish to quote the paragraph where she uses the phrase "ulterior motive." I'm getting old and can't see as well. Of what I read, she is saying the opposite. Their motives were clear and honorable. Maybe you have special knowledge that their ulterior motive was to sell Amway distributorships, I don't know.
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It's eaiser to see clearly without the rose-colored glasses.
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If you're saying the protesters were firing on the boat, then maybe murder was the ulterior motive, I don't know. But I sincerely miss where Phyllis Bennis said they had an ulterior motive.
Just about any other scenario puts the Israelis fully in the position of the aggressor, especially since they were so far into international waters.
Just going by what we know so far, though.... |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/10/2010 06:54:07 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 10:23:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
You continue, like Democrat Anthony Weiner to just regurgitate Israeli right-wing propaganda. |
Again, how does this move the conversation forward, Gorgo? It doesn't. You wrote it in order to insult me.| There is no need to smear the victims with talk of blame or ulterior motives or provocation. |
You call it a smear, I call it understanding the facts of the situation.| This was only an act of war. It was murder on the high seas, and that's all you need to say about it. |
So we don't need to understand why the protesters were there? Then their protest has failed, and you (Gorgo) are allowing the Israelis to win.| Now Dave will probably continue to use my name without talking directly to me. |
Since you don't seem to be fully engaged, why should I?
You also wrote:But I sincerely miss where Phyllis Bennis said they had an ulterior motive.
Just about any other scenario puts the Israelis fully in the position of the aggressor, especially since they were so far into international waters. |
Why would the protesters having an ulterior motive reduce Israel's aggression in any way?
Of course, announcing that they were going to run the blockade and repel all boarders non-violently (how was that supposed to work, again?) was pretty damn aggressive of the IHH. But they were being aggressive for justice, while Israel is aggressive to continue abusing the Gazans. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 10:45:16 [Permalink]
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| Dave walks away from his computer a few paces and returns, forgetting why he got up. His cat, a 45-year-old calico, eats her own paw, lovingly. A small trickle of blood flows on and between the keys of the piano. Dave, barely noticing, continues wiping the mayonnaise off the arm of his chair. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/10/2010 10:45:48 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 12:08:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I meant from the flotilla's perspective. I don't see what the humanitarians were doing that was either wrong or right by trying to sail to Gaza. This, I think is independent of the fact that they were bringing humanitarian aid, but we could substitute a flotilla for a self-interested boat (not trying to make a political point) going to Gaza to sell things and 9 merchants were killed, this would have substantial effects. I would still care who was responsible. |
The IHH was well aware that Israel considers the blockade to be legal and so running it would be wrongdoing in Israel's eyes. Plus, getting oneself killed is generally the wrong thing to do. It limits how much goodness you can perform in the future.| Oh, you want the larger powers to escort ships through the blockade and hold the Israelis off without actually harming the Israelis? That could conceivably happen some time in the future. |
Israel has been riding high on military successes over the last 40+ years. Like teenagers, they may consider themselves to be invincible. A black eye or two might help them moderate their behavior.| Perhaps a war is required to unseat Israel from its position of privilege. |
Right, how much harm can knocking off Franz Ferdinand possibly cause? |
Well, even sitting still may have unintended consequences.| So essentially you're choosing the least of some evils and I'm subtracting the amount of evil you attribute to the least evil one from all options to give me a zero evil option, or vice versa (you adding that value). The difference becomes is trivial regarding blame, credit, etc, I suppose. We would come out on the same side in choosing the "best path." The only disagreement appears to be where to put the baseline. |
I'll buy that.| No, no, I'm quite content to allow you to let your true conservative colors shine through. |
Hehehe. Ask me what I think of the Second Amendment.You're also arguing for a strong standard for changing the present state of things.  |
Yeah, see? I'm being progressive. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 12:09:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Dave walks away from his computer a few paces and returns, forgetting why he got up. His cat, a 45-year-old calico, eats her own paw, lovingly. A small trickle of blood flows on and between the keys of the piano. Dave, barely noticing, continues wiping the mayonnaise off the arm of his chair. |
In the distance, a dog barks. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 12:28:07 [Permalink]
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| I think the real truth here is that Dave hates muslims more than jews. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 12:49:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I think the real truth here is that Dave hates muslims more than jews.
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But he hates members of the Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk the most.
I've seen it. You can see it too. Sometimes Dave holds his copy of the Pentecost Letter, and shakes it fiercely at the Atlantic Ocean, shouting "Make a difference for Christ?!" "I'll show you how I can make a difference, you Kuthoer!" |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/10/2010 12:54:58 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 17:41:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
They opened fire on the Isrealis. Opening fire on a military ship is inviting return fire.
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This is news to me. What ordonance did the IHH-ship carry? Where does this information come from?
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AP reports an allegation (and some video captured by the Isrealis seems to show) stun grenades coming from the ship as well as thrown objects and fire hoses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24&feature=player_embedded
IHH ship carried slingshots. Once the Israelis boarded, some of them had their sidearms taken away and were shot.
There were some preliminary reports of small arms fire from the ship. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 19:03:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I think the real truth here is that Dave hates muslims more than jews. |
I don't hate either group nearly as much as I hate Christians, which is why I was disappointed that the Jews didn't sink all the boats and the liferafts.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 00:44:15 [Permalink]
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This is what an ulterior motive is:
http://www.media-ocracy.com/?p=279
http://www.truth-out.org/israeli-document-gaza-blockade-isnt-about-security60320
Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.
Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza.
However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.
"A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'" the government said.
McClatchy obtained the government's written statement from Gisha, the Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, which sued the government for information about the blockade. The Israeli high court upheld the suit, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year.
Sari Bashi, the director of Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza. Gisha focuses on Palestinian rights.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/11/2010 00:46:52 |
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Israeli blockade incident
