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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2010 : 01:37:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
But he hates members of the Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk the most.
I've seen it. You can see it too. Sometimes Dave holds his copy of the Pentecost Letter, and shakes it fiercely at the Atlantic Ocean, shouting "Make a difference for Christ?!" "I'll show you how I can make a difference, you Kuthoer!"
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I'm going back to my original statement. You have a reading comprehension problem.
And you're a jerk. And a hypotcrit. Complaining about other insulting you while you've done nothing else the whole thread. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 01:44:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
They opened fire on the Isrealis. Opening fire on a military ship is inviting return fire.
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This is news to me. What ordonance did the IHH-ship carry? Where does this information come from?
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AP reports an allegation (and some video captured by the Isrealis seems to show) stun grenades coming from the ship as well as thrown objects and fire hoses. |
When I get the opportunity to watch the link, I'll get back with comments.
IHH ship carried slingshots. Once the Israelis boarded, some of them had their sidearms taken away and were shot.
There were some preliminary reports of small arms fire from the ship.
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(emphasis above mine)
For now, as I understand it, Israeli ships attacked the flotilla by initiating a boarding. Are you surprised that some of the Israeli soldiers got disarmed and their weapons used against them? They were aggressors in a criminal act, and got a violent reaction. By saying "Opening fire on a military ship is inviting return fire." is to only tell half the truth. If you attack me armed to your teeth, I'll try to disarm and pacify you if I can't avoid the confrontation. If I then use your weapon against your helicopter to stop your comrades-in-arms is that surprising?
But was any Israeli military ship close enough to even be remotely threatened by small arms fire? All aggressions during the boarding were initiated by the Israelis by the act of boarding.
You made it sound like it was reported that the IHH-crew started the whole thing.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 01:57:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
But he hates members of the Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk the most.
I've seen it. You can see it too. Sometimes Dave holds his copy of the Pentecost Letter, and shakes it fiercely at the Atlantic Ocean, shouting "Make a difference for Christ?!" "I'll show you how I can make a difference, you Kuthoer!"
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I'm going back to my original statement. You have a reading comprehension problem.
And you're a jerk. And a hypotcrit. Complaining about other insulting you while you've done nothing else the whole thread.
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 What the hell is your problem? And what the hell is a hypotcrit? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 02:04:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What the hell is your problem? |
My problem is that you complain about others insulting you, while you do not hesitate to do so yourself. You don't see the problem with your own behavior?
And what the hell is a hypotcrit?
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 06/11/2010 02:05:04 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 02:06:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
What the hell is your problem? |
My problem is that you complain about others insulting you, while you do not hesitate to do so yourself. You don't see the problem with your own behavior?
And what the hell is a hypotcrit?
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With this post I insulted someone? Who? Oh shit! I forgot you're Dutch. Did that offend you? Crap! I've offended the Netherlands contingent. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 02:22:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
With this post I insulted someone? Who? Oh shit! I forgot you're Dutch. Did that offend you? Crap! I've offended the Netherlands contingent.
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It was the last of a line of posts meant to be insulting to Dave W., wasn't it?
Starting here: "You continue, like Democrat Anthony Weiner to just regurgitate Israeli right-wing propaganda." and continuing onwards. Instead of answering Dave W.'s question on how that comment was supposed to move things forward, you just latched into comments on how Dave W. hates everyone and his grandma.
Don't you ever reflect on your own behavior? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 02:34:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
For now, as I understand it, Israeli ships attacked the flotilla by initiating a boarding. Are you surprised that some of the Israeli soldiers got disarmed and their weapons used against them? |
Actually, I am surprised at that. I find that action extremely stupid. As far as I can say, the people who did so did in fact bring their own deaths upon them. If some commandos board your ship and you attack them, take some of their weapons and start shooting, where do you think that will end?
| They were aggressors in a criminal act, and got a violent reaction. |
If Israel would have boarded and they wouldn't have done anyhing Israel would have been the aggressor and they would have been the victims. They probably would also still be alive. Attacking those Israeli commandos doesn't change that Israel was the agressor here, but it also makes them extremely irresponsible in their actions.
| By saying "Opening fire on a military ship is inviting return fire." is to only tell half the truth. If you attack me armed to your teeth, I'll try to disarm and pacify you if I can't avoid the confrontation. If I then use your weapon against your helicopter to stop your comrades-in-arms is that surprising? |
In this case, I'd say yes. Your other option was to surrender. This would also have brought international outrage, but not at the cost of your life. While I have no special love for the Israeli commandos, I don't think they would have started shooting if nobody attacked them when they boarded.
But was any Israeli military ship close enough to even be remotely threatened by small arms fire? All aggressions during the boarding were initiated by the Israelis by the act of boarding.
You made it sound like it was reported that the IHH-crew started the whole thing. |
Started? No. Were responsible for it's escalation? probably. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 02:39:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
With this post I insulted someone? Who? Oh shit! I forgot you're Dutch. Did that offend you? Crap! I've offended the Netherlands contingent.
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It was the last of a line of posts meant to be insulting to Dave W., wasn't it?
Starting here: "You continue, like Democrat Anthony Weiner to just regurgitate Israeli right-wing propaganda." and continuing onwards. Instead of answering Dave W.'s question on how that comment was supposed to move things forward, you just latched into comments on how Dave W. hates everyone and his grandma.
Don't you ever reflect on your own behavior?
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It was a joke. He was referring to me as though I were dead, or a fictional character. So I was expanding the joke when someone said something about him hating religious groups, my absurd sense of humor went to the Dutch Reformed Church. I could have gone to the Amish, but I thought that was too easy. I googled that church and came up with the rest. I thought it was probably the finest work of writing ever created, and I can see myself talking about it on PBS someday. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 03:05:18 [Permalink]
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It was the last of a line of posts meant to be insulting to Dave W., wasn't it?
Starting here: "You continue, like Democrat Anthony Weiner to just regurgitate Israeli right-wing propaganda." and continuing onwards. Instead of answering Dave W.'s question on how that comment was supposed to move things forward, you just latched into comments on how Dave W. hates everyone and his grandma.
Don't you ever reflect on your own behavior?
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We've had long discussions here about insults for the sake of insulting, and I've explained what I mean, and Dave has been right on some occasions, maybe even this one, about me holding back from telling halfwits that they're halfwits and trying to be polite while treating them like they're halfwits. Maybe he's right. Maybe I should just tell Dave that I love him dearly, but he's a brain damaged fucking dweeb. My problem with that is that it doesn't mean anything. It's not something that can be addressed except with him calling me an asshole. If I tell him that I think he's smearing the victims, and I tell him why I think that, and attempt to give him reasons and links where he can read about my position, and do it in maybe an uneducated and naive and poorly worded way, then he can respond with his stupid half-assed reasons and whatever lame crap that he's capable of (joke), but it's attempting to communicate. Calling him a brain-damaged dweeb is not attempting to communicate. All it is doing is putting my frustration with my inability to communicate with Dave onto Dave.
As far as responding to Dave, Dave is just playing Dave games. He's trying to get my goat. He usually gets it and I go off onto tangents with Dave and get nowhere. I've explained my position and talked about word meanings and when it comes right down to it, I hate Dave and everything he stands for, and I hate Kil and everything he stands for, but I think we're sort of as close to being friends as you can be in this kind of limited medium with (my) limited skills. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/11/2010 03:17:31 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 03:15:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
For now, as I understand it, Israeli ships attacked the flotilla by initiating a boarding. Are you surprised that some of the Israeli soldiers got disarmed and their weapons used against them? |
Actually, I am surprised at that. I find that action extremely stupid. |
I was thinking in more general terms. But even within a humanitarian crew, and obviously with IHH you have a bell curve of people ranging from reasonable to plain stupid. Some of them forgot why they were there: to peacefully try to break the blockade, not engage in hand-to-hand confrontation with Israeli commandos.
If the IHH-crew really wanted to repel the pirates, they should have brought Stingers and Carl Gustav's, and their own firearms.
| As far as I can say, the people who did so did in fact bring their own deaths upon them. If some commandos board your ship and you attack them, take some of their weapons and start shooting, where do you think that will end? |
At least shot in the face, but not in the back of their heads at point blank range.
| They were aggressors in a criminal act, and got a violent reaction. |
If Israel would have boarded and they wouldn't have done anyhing Israel would have been the aggressor and they would have been the victims. They probably would also still be alive. Attacking those Israeli commandos doesn't change that Israel was the agressor here, but it also makes them extremely irresponsible in their actions. |
No, but spilled blood increased the outrage from the international community. Given that some of the crew aparently was willing to sacrifice their life for the cause, they got a lot of bang for the buck...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 04:06:28 [Permalink]
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| And you're right. After much self-reflection, Dave is a fuckwit, not a brain-damaged dweeb. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 04:08:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was thinking in more general terms. But even within a humanitarian crew, and obviously with IHH you have a bell curve of people ranging from reasonable to plain stupid. Some of them forgot why they were there: to peacefully try to break the blockade, not engage in hand-to-hand confrontation with Israeli commandos.
If the IHH-crew really wanted to repel the pirates, they should have brought Stingers and Carl Gustav's, and their own firearms. |
True. But then the IHH is to blame for not taking sufficient precautions to prevent this from happening.
It is the organizers responsibility to make sure that those on the flotilla don't get hurt. And I know Gorgo is now going to play the "Israel has won" card (but fuck him, I don't think see any evidence at this point that he is engaging in this discussion honestly), but from the material I have seen so far the IHH did not take sufficient precautions in the run-up to the boarding to prevent the situation from escalating. And in that case, the IHH is partly to blame for the results.
| At least shot in the face, but not in the back of their heads at point blank range. |
Sure, but from this standpoint I cannot judge this. To get an accurate assessment of this, you would need to trace what happened precisely. Which is why I'd like to see an independent, international investigation of what happened.
| No, but spilled blood increased the outrage from the international community. Given that some of the crew aparently was willing to sacrifice their life for the cause, they got a lot of bang for the buck... |
I don't disagree on that. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 04:14:23 [Permalink]
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| And with his last two posts, Gorgo has lost all credibility I gave him. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 04:16:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was thinking in more general terms. But even within a humanitarian crew, and obviously with IHH you have a bell curve of people ranging from reasonable to plain stupid. Some of them forgot why they were there: to peacefully try to break the blockade, not engage in hand-to-hand confrontation with Israeli commandos.
If the IHH-crew really wanted to repel the pirates, they should have brought Stingers and Carl Gustav's, and their own firearms. |
True. But then the IHH is to blame for not taking sufficient precautions to prevent this from happening.
It is the organizers responsibility to make sure that those on the flotilla don't get hurt. And I know Gorgo is now going to play the "Israel has won" card (but fuck him, I don't think see any evidence at this point that he is engaging in this discussion honestly), but from the material I have seen so far the IHH did not take sufficient precautions in the run-up to the boarding to prevent the situation from escalating. And in that case, the IHH is partly to blame for the results.
| At least shot in the face, but not in the back of their heads at point blank range. |
Sure, but from this standpoint I cannot judge this. To get an accurate assessment of this, you would need to trace what happened precisely. Which is why I'd like to see an independent, international investigation of what happened.
| No, but spilled blood increased the outrage from the international community. Given that some of the crew aparently was willing to sacrifice their life for the cause, they got a lot of bang for the buck... |
I don't disagree on that.
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If this is a thread advising people as to how to engage in protest, then I'm in full agreement.
If we're talking about the incident, Israel had no business sending a fully armed band of elite fighting troops into a cruiser of 600 people and then crying that they were attacked. Fuck them and fuck you. The American that was killed was shot four times in the head and once in the chest. Once injured, they did not rush the injured to get proper medical treatment. They left them die. Fuck you, you little insulting half-witted jerkwad, and all the assholes here that don't like it. Kiss my fat flabby white, smelly, un-self-reflecting hemmorhoidal ass. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 04:17:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
And with his last two posts, Gorgo has lost all credibility I gave him.
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And aren't I disappointed you daughter-fucking cretin. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Israeli blockade incident
