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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 21:43:00 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Bulent Yildirim asserted that Israeli soldiers would be repelled, period. |
I caught that too. And he was talking about Gaza waters, pretty much. His plan was to repel them how? The fact that Israel chose to stop them in international waters was a gift.
The only way for them to get through peacefully, given Bulent Yildirim vow to repel any boarding of their ship, would have been for Israel to allow a banned organization's ship port in a country that Israel has under a blockade, without even a search. How likely was that?
If Bulent Yildirim didn't know how impossible his mission was, unless his mission was to make Israel look bad, which he was successful at doing, he's an idiot. I strongly doubt that he's an idiot. He threw down the bait and Israel took it.
That's not to say that Israel didn't deserve to be made to look bad.
What I don't get is why Gorgo is so bent out of shape by the suggestion that these guys weren't stupid. Does it make Israel any less wrong if these guys are not as innocent as Gorgo would prefer them to be?
I don't think so...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2010 : 22:22:01 [Permalink]
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Kil, you can't reason with Gorgo. This is the guy (or whatever) that thinks the US has a law that makes all use of military force illegal.
He can't be reasoned with, and this thread pretty clearly demonstrates that.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 00:52:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I've been waiting to see comments on this.
The Israeli fleet attacked, and boarded, ships on international water, like pirates. This is a clear violation of international law. If the world community doesn't react soon, we'll be in trouble.
USA have indiscriminately been swinging its ugly military dick around violating international law, so why shouldn't Israel? I mean, USA have always backed them up.
If they can be allowed to do as they please, why can't Sweden? Or Switzerland? Next in line is Germany, Iran, North Korea, and China.
It'll will be anachy on the seas again.
If my ship had been boarded on international waters, I'd think I would have defended it. Yet the Israeli governmental criminals treated the passengers on those ships as if they were the criminal. The irony is staggering.
Too bad not enough israeli soldiers weren't killed, they had no business being there.
On the other hand, the dead civilians' blood are on their hands. Most passengers on the ship made none-violent resistance.
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While I oppose the blockade on Gaza, to over simplify what happened doesn't really do anyone a service or clarify the situation.
The people on boat that Israel boarded and were attacked on were not peace activists or innocent of only trying to bring aid to Gaza. By all accounts, and I have looked into this, they were provocateurs with the goal of embarrassing Israel. Now, don't get me wrong. Given the situation in Gaza, creating an incident like this one seemed to be the intent of this group and might have been a smart move. It seems to have worked.
Let me be clear about this. I do not support the blockade of Gaza. But it seems likely that Israel walked into a PR trap that was planned.
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This is the kind of brutal attitude that I'm responding to. Kil is saying that these people not only were prepared for the worst, which everyone should be, they caused the worst. He thinks I should be happy about, well not the murders, but the fact that the murders will change things. Change we can believe in, right? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 00:59:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
So, you think Israel rules the 7 seas too? Any ship anywhere in the world can be attacked by Israel, and it's the fault of the victim of that attack?
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Do you deny that it was their plan to break the blockade? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:07:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
So, you think Israel rules the 7 seas too? Any ship anywhere in the world can be attacked by Israel, and it's the fault of the victim of that attack?
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Do you deny that it was their plan to break the blockade?
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They were in international waters. It is a crime to attack a ship in international waters. That is the point we are talking about. There is no "civil disobedience" in being that far into international waters. There is no law against being that far into international waters. There is no governing body which would object to those ships being that far into international waters. There is a body of people who have made laws about attacking people in international waters.
To talk about provoking in that context is supporting that crime. To talk about ulterior motives in that context is supporting that crime. To say that the victims, once they saw they might be attacked shouldn't be preparted for the worst is supporting that crime.
Yes they prepared for the worst. Some of them. How many soldiers did they kill? They took the weapons from some of the murderers to stop them. They incapacitated murderers. And even with that, they didn't take the murderers weapons and shoot them. The victims themselves were not murderers. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:08:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
This is the kind of brutal attitude that I'm responding to. Kil is saying that these people not only were prepared for the worst, which everyone should be, they caused the worst. He thinks I should be happy about, well not the murders, but the fact that the murders will change things. Change we can believe in, right?
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What you are saying is getting more and more incoherent. Are you now of the position that the fact that this has got international attention and thus is changing things is bad? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:11:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Kil, you can't reason with Gorgo. This is the guy (or whatever) that thinks the US has a law that makes all use of military force illegal.
He can't be reasoned with, and this thread pretty clearly demonstrates that.
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Kil, you keep saying that this person contributes something to these boards. What has this person contributed to this thread except insults?
Okay, I'll be extremely stupid and fall into your trap, Dude. Tell me please where I've said that I think the US has a law that makes all use of military force illegal. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:13:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
This is the kind of brutal attitude that I'm responding to. Kil is saying that these people not only were prepared for the worst, which everyone should be, they caused the worst. He thinks I should be happy about, well not the murders, but the fact that the murders will change things. Change we can believe in, right?
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What you are saying is getting more and more incoherent. Are you now of the position that the fact that this has got international attention and thus is changing things is bad?
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What will change, is my point? Will the Palestinians be treated as humans because this happened? How likely do you think that is? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:15:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by dglas
I see two peoples determined to kill each other, and other interests that are helping them do just that.
Nothing more. I do not take sides.
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And by doing so, you take sides.
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Congratulations. That response gets my stupid award for this week.
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If you say that both sides are equal in this fight, if you say that the US and Israel are not the agressors here, then you are taking sides with the agressors. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:19:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Apparently, you are the only person posting on this thread who sees things clearly...
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I sense at least one fallacious argument here. I'm wrong because I'm the only one arguing a particular point?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:21:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What will change, is my point? Will the Palestinians be treated as humans because this happened? How likely do you think that is?
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What will change needs to be seen. But the responses have been universally critical of Israel, even from longtime backers of Israel like the US.
No, the Israelis will not suddenly bow to political pressure, stream into the Gaza strip with roses shouting "We were wrong, I love you too". But their actions will be looked at more critical in the future, increasing political pressure for Israel to change the way it operates. We're living in reality here, Gorgo. Baby steps is what you'll get, but baby steps do change the world, one step at the time. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:23:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
We're living in reality here, Gorgo. Baby steps is what you'll get, but baby steps do change the world, one step at the time.
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I'm not disagreeing with that in any way, but there is no reason to expect baby steps, and listening to Kil tells me that Israel has won the propaganda war. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:24:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
If you say that both sides are equal in this fight, |
Where did dglas say that?
| if you say that the US and Israel are not the agressors here, |
Where did dglas say that?
then you are taking sides with the agressors.
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Given that dglas did not say that, he did not take sides. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Blaming the victim. The girl wasn't a goody two shoes. She was raped because she wore a mini skirt. |
The girl was raped because she wasn't wearing pants and she held up a big sign that said, "Come have sex with me!".
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I missed this before. This is part of the brutal mindset that I'm talking about. Even if people were asking to be shot, it's still murder, and these people were not asking to be shot. These people were not asking to be murdered in international waters. Once shot, they were not refusing medical treatment.
The Israelis have won. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:31:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you say that both sides are equal in this fight, |
Where did dglas say that?
| if you say that the US and Israel are not the agressors here, |
Where did dglas say that?
then you are taking sides with the agressors.
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Given that dglas did not say that, he did not take sides.
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Well, let dglas say that. His decision to be neutral in the face of aggression supports the aggressor. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Israeli blockade incident
