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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2010 : 08:58:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BillScott
Just relax here for a minute. As you can tell by now usually when I get involved it becomes me senseless irrationality on one side and the forum 100% of scientists that have published on Evolutionary Theory in the last 10yrs to peer acclaim on the other. A small town Christian conservative Spawn of Hamm drawing so much attention derision here, gosh, who would have figured? I'm out of my depth! I do read every post but the limited time that I have to dedicate to the discussion does not allow me to address every post. And yes dude is right, I seldom look at links I don't want to learn anything new. It just takes time. Because I'm too lazy and obdurate Time that I don't have I cant read too darn quick. ... As soon as filthy posted the funding information you will note that I promptly addressed it. Ignored it for as long as I could get away with |
There you go Billyboy, fixed it for'yall. |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 09:02:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And yes dude is right, I seldom look at links. It just takes time. Time that I don't have. |
And yet it probably took you more time to type your most recent replies here than it took me to 'goggle' (whenever you type that in a post, I get a good chuckle) the links I provided for you. Seriously, that's your excuse? Pathetic. |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 09:08:53 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the welcome back Filthy, ya old sea dog you. Nice to see you and Kil, Dave et al still fighting the good fight. TBH I got bored, but I'm back now and still hearing the same, tired old canards from '95, when I first went online and learnt of 'cretinism'! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 09:33:54 [Permalink]
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Others have responded to Bills reply to my post, and have done a fine job if it. So I will leave that one alone accept to also ask Bill how he defines science.
Bill:
As is always this simply boils down to two competing belief systems. You have those who subscribe to a divine creator as the first cause for all that exists (which in the USA the majority of those happen to be Christians) and those who subscribe to a materialistic or naturalistic first cause for all that exists. And from there trickle down all the debates, such as this one, which when broken down to it's core are just these two competing belief systems in opposition of each other once again. |
Bill!. Science is a method. It’s a tool for understanding the workings of natural world. If any scientist signed a statement that declared the goal of science is to promote an atheistic worldview, that scientist would be as guilty as those who have signed the faith statement. What you or I believe, what we take away from the science is not relevant to the workings of science itself. Why don’t you get that?
By this time you must know, because it’s been explained to you over and over again, that the study of evolution says nothing at all about first cause. Not only is that a different science, but even if the first cause were to be found, it would still say nothing about atheism or theism or Mickey Mouse or what you or I believe, unless through evidence it becomes clear that God did do it. But since God is outside of nature, and science is the study of nature, that’s not likely to happen.
What you take home from the science is up to you. But to continually say that presenting the current science on evolution is promoting a worldview is not just a little wrong. It’s flat out balls to the wall wrong. How is it that you make the worldview claim when what is being presented is science? You keep saying you have no problem with science and yet, it’s clear that if it’s a science that you don’t agree with, in your view, it’s not science. It’s a worldview.
So there you are picking and choosing what is science based on whether or not it conflicts with your worldview. (Which just happens to be that what the bible describes is historically accurate and literally true in all aspects.) I can’t help you there and neither can science. You can’t on one hand say “I have no problem with science” and on the other say “But you and I are not talking about science” without tipping your hand.
I can say this until I am blue in the face, Bill. Science can’t put the theistic or the atheistic cart before the horse. It just goes where it goes. How we interpret the knowledge that science delivers is up to us. The only place where worldviews come into any conflict is really outside of the actual science being done. It’s that simple. There is no conspiracy in science to prove that God doesn’t exist. Science itself (which is a method) has no dog in that race.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 10:53:40 [Permalink]
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Worldview: n.
The perspective of a molehill as viewed by a hillock. Neither signifies much as neither is a mountain. Only the mad think otherwise.
"Worldview" means nothing; only empirical evidence and high poker hands will be beneficial. The ToE provides a far better explanation than Genesis, which is a very good story, as is Alice in Wonderland.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:15:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Worldview: n.
The perspective of a molehill as viewed by a hillock. Neither signifies much as neither is a mountain. Only the mad think otherwise.
"Worldview" means nothing; only empirical evidence and high poker hands will be beneficial. The ToE provides a far better explanation than Genesis, which is a very good story, as is Alice in Wonderland.
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`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
From Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 12:45:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
As is always this simply boils down to two competing belief systems. You have those who subscribe to a divine creator as the first cause for all that exists (which in the USA the majority of those happen to be Christians) and those who subscribe to a materialistic or naturalistic first cause for all that exists. And from there trickle down all the debates, such as this one, which when broken down to it's core are just these two competing belief systems in opposition of each other once again. |
Given that the Smithsonian exhibit has nothing to do with first causes, your divine worldview doesn't clash with it, even if we grant you that the museum is espousing a certain worldview. You arguments fails, even when used under your own terms. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2010 : 14:21:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
Worldview: n.
The perspective of a molehill as viewed by a hillock. Neither signifies much as neither is a mountain. Only the mad think otherwise.
"Worldview" means nothing; only empirical evidence and high poker hands will be beneficial. The ToE provides a far better explanation than Genesis, which is a very good story, as is Alice in Wonderland.
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`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
From Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
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Do you believe in six impossible things before breakfast?
Hang around a Bill Scott thread long enough and you will. Me, I hit eleven this morning.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 15:37:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I have no problem with science. But you and I are not talking about science. We are talking about competing world views. Your world view that states that life arose out of some warm little pond and where the warm little pond came from we do not know but, we do know (we claim) that no divine intervention was involved. And my world view which claims a divine first cause who dwells in eternity and and as creator of the laws of creation is not bound to said laws. |
I thought the exhibition was on human evolution? Not abiogenesis? And no, abiogenesis does not equate to atheism. It is an active field of scientific research.
| You then fraudulently label your world view as science and then fraudulently label my world view as religion in a obvious attempt to keep one competing world view out of the public realm while promoting another competing world view in that same public realm. |
Nope. I label the human ancestry exhibition as science because that is what it is. It is a theory that is testable through archeological and genetic evidence, has been tested against that evidence and not been falsified. Your beliefs are untestable and hence not scientific, for the very reason you yourself already stated above.
| In other words sense you have now fraudulently labeled your world view "science" you claim that it can be taught using public funding in any public setting you see fit. And sense my world view has has been fraudulently labeled religion you reject the use of any public funds going towards this world view and will fight to the death to keep this competing world view from the public realm. And your fear of any other competing world view being given equal footing in the public realm is just telling of the fragile state of your faith in this world view of yours. |
Your worldview is not religion. Pray tell me how it is not religion.
| And your belief that your world view has a stranglehold on science is laughable. Just as in the tea party case, anyone who has a competing view with Obama is a racist and anybody with a competing world view here can in no way can be a scientist or "be doing science". Or so says you. |
Did Kill say that? Where?
[quote]snip irrelevancy |
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 15:41:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
As is always this simply boils down to two competing belief systems. You have those who subscribe to a divine creator as the first cause for all that exists (which in the USA the majority of those happen to be Christians) and those who subscribe to a materialistic or naturalistic first cause for all that exists. And from there trickle down all the debates, such as this one, which when broken down to it's core are just these two competing belief systems in opposition of each other once again. |
Bullshit Bill. The museum display was focused on human ancestry, which scientific evidence fully supports as the result of evolution. Many theists (ie, those who hold to a divince creator as a first cause) fully accept the evidence of the evolution of humans from a common ancestor with other animals. So this is not about worldview.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 04:09:40 [Permalink]
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I am a sporadic visitor at Happy Jihad's House of Pancakes. This morning, I vaguely remembered a venomous screed HJ put up relative to Ken Ham. I do not recall if it inspired a similar outburst from me; it might have. I've been gleefully jumping all into AiG's shit since even before they left Oz, and now it's all but force of habit.
Anyhow, I looked the screed up and here 'tis:
Thursday, October 30, 2008
Ken Ham: "I'm not a moron! No, really!"
Ken Ham is a public laughing stock. Years from now, when they are compiling the list for Wackaloon of the Century, Ken Ham will at least be a runner up. But for some reason, at the center of the vortex of silliness that is the Creation Novelty Museum, they simply can't fathom how insane they sound. But at least they are indignant when their betters pass summary judgment on their bizarre beliefs. It's at Ken's blog. It's called:
Evolutionist Calls AiG “Morons”
And Ken fails to detect that the evolutionist was being polite.
Daniel Phelps is the President of the Kentucky Paleontological Society and an arch opponent of the Creation Museum and AiG ministry. With the position that he holds at the KPS, you would hope that such a person would not stoop to name calling in his opposition to those who believe in the biblical creation message. However, that seems to be the trend these days in evolutionist circles, and Phelps has resorted to just that.
Dude. We are so, so far above you. You are a mote, a speck, a mite. You're not even on his radar. You are lucky that he even bothers to mention you, since you have nothing, absolutely nothing to offer the physical or biological sciences. Nothing. |
Sorry 'bout that, Ken, but you are indeed a moron; or should that be "moran?"
Many of the comments are of equal interest...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/30/2010 04:12:49 |
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Ken Ham: not even a very good liar.
