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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:14:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I think this would be a great time to compromise. I have been hearing much talk about about NYC offering to help find a place that would be benificial to all parties. |
That's why the Imam wants the center where it's going to go. To benefit as many people as possible, in his mind.| This would be a good time for the Muslim community to show some good faith and compassion for the citizens of NYC. |
What about the Muslim citizens of NYC? What about the friends and families of the Muslim victims of 9/11?| It sure would help them integrate into American culture if they did. |
Who says they haven't integrated? Imam Rauf was an advisor to George W. Bush. |
(bolding mine)
This is the only guy that I've heard say anything and that was weeks ago.
This thread being a direct reflection of what is going on in the media has me thinking that maybe I'm just not hearing what the Muslims are saying through all of the yelling between the non Muslims.
I dunno. I'm just so confused. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:20:14 [Permalink]
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Isn't a few blocks away from Ground Zero compromise enough? It's not like they are building on the footprint of where WTC stood.
If people are so stressed out about a groups constitutional right to erect a building there, why not offer to help build it a few blocks farther away with some incentive like "we'll get you a bigger land-lot to build on, we'll co-sponsor the building for you if you do." |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:26:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
(bolding mine)
This is the only guy that I've heard say anything and that was weeks ago.
This thread being a direct reflection of what is going on in the media has me thinking that maybe I'm just not hearing what the Muslims are saying through all of the yelling between the non Muslims.
I dunno. I'm just so confused. |
Imam Rauf is the guy who wants to build the community center. He also convinced the Ex-Prez to not confuse all Muslims with terrorists. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:27:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Quoth Dave:
"Then which side are you on, dglas?"
And that reflexively polarizing question pretty much says it all, which is why there is no possibility of progress in this discussion here. |
Who is doing the polarizing here? You are the one pretending that muslims are a homogenized group and refusing to consider any other viewpoint on this issue.
| It's not like anyone is going to entertain that my point might be beyond the building of one mosque at one particular place. It's not like anyone will even entertain that my point might extend beyond just islam. |
I did entertain the thought that you might have a carefully thought out position. So far however, all I've seen from you is either insults or a "lalala!!! Can't Hear you!!!"-attitude. I'll be happy to engage you on this or any other topic, as soon as you are ready to engage me.
This is why I rarely post on these forums. The acuity level here simply will not permit even the possibility of advancing the subject matter.
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Projection much? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:31:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
(bolding mine)
This is the only guy that I've heard say anything and that was weeks ago.
This thread being a direct reflection of what is going on in the media has me thinking that maybe I'm just not hearing what the Muslims are saying through all of the yelling between the non Muslims.
I dunno. I'm just so confused. |
Imam Rauf is the guy who wants to build the community center. He also convinced the Ex-Prez to not confuse all Muslims with terrorists.
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I am familiar with Imam Rauf, he's the only Muslim that I actually ever heard speak on the subject.
I guess my naivete makes me think this may be a great opportunity for us all to join hands and sing kumbaya. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:38:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Isn't a few blocks away from Ground Zero compromise enough? It's not like they are building on the footprint of where WTC stood. |
The people complaining can't seem to agree on how far away is far enough. Especially when there are people protesting mosques in Tennessee, Wisconsin and California already.| If people are so stressed out about a groups constitutional right to erect a building there, why not offer to help build it a few blocks farther away with some incentive like "we'll get you a bigger land-lot to build on, we'll co-sponsor the building for you if you do." |
Because the people who are "stressed out" about it know that that's not a solution. The Muslims already own the building, and have already used it for prayers. They just want to remodel it from being a old Burlington Coat Factory into an Islamic community/cultural center with a mosque inside. There's no legal or moral justification for trying to bribe them to move. Besides, none of the vocal conservatives would do so, since they'd want to avoid headlines like, "Newt Gingrich helps build Islamic Mosque!" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:40:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I guess my naivete makes me think this may be a great opportunity for us all to join hands and sing kumbaya. |
That seems to be what Imam Rauf was thinking before the whackaloons started screeching. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:47:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Isn't a few blocks away from Ground Zero compromise enough? It's not like they are building on the footprint of where WTC stood. |
The people complaining can't seem to agree on how far away is far enough. Especially when there are people protesting mosques in Tennessee, Wisconsin and California already |
(bolding and color mine)
That is here in town. I love how our local news always seems to pick the least intelligent, least articulate people to show. They had a meeting about it and one local resident who spoke against it got up to the microphone and said (with prepared notes) I Don't know anything about the religion but I do know that it is against everything I beleive in"
Um.....OK.....real convincing. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 19:53:10 [Permalink]
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Well, it seems that someone other than Colbert has the proper perspective on this.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 22:25:29 [Permalink]
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| Close enough. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 04:58:13 [Permalink]
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dglas on Facebook:| One of the most absurd things I've heard said recently is that since there are divisions among muslims, there is therefore no islamic dogma to which we can look with a critical eye. |
Wow. Who said that? I bet it's another strawman. dglas seems to have taken misrepresentation to a whole new level when it comes to this subject.| The whole point of absolutism, be it christianity, islam or others, is that there is a dogma which self-identified followers are to adhere to. |
That's the most-naive view of religion: "oh, you're a Christian? Then you must believe everything in the Bible." Reality is much more nuanced. Unless there's actual brainwashing or other coercion by people involved, followers pick and choose which parts of the dogma to adhere to, and which to ignore, themselves. The dogma certainly cannot impose itself on a person, instead a person needs to actively accept the teachings as valid.| To claim otherwise is non-sensical, as well as contrary to billions of evidence examples. |
Let's see the actual data on these examples you're claiming, dglas. How many literalists are there in each religion? And it's a certainty that nobody can adhere to everything in the Abrahamaic religions, simply because some of it contradicts other parts of it. These believers must be selective and/or inconsistent believers, because their dogma is self-contradictory.
Similarly (and also on Facebook), dglas seems to have no clue as to what certain words mean in the context of religion:| Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is such a thing as a moderate muslim. Is this person moderate in accordance with the prescriptions of the faith? Or is this person moderate in contradiction to the prescriptions of the faith? Or is the faith a fuzzy convenience such that moderation and extremism are both options? |
Conservative, moderate and liberal, when applied to religions, can be thought of as relative measures of how much of the dogma a person ignores. Conservatives ignore little, moderates ignore a medium amount and liberals ignore a lot of it. Extreme conservatives tend to be literalists (with all the foolishness that implies), while extreme liberals may self-identify as followers of a particular religion, but not actually believe the core teachings. For example, some extreme liberal Christians think that Jesus was just a man who had some good advice for living. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 06:01:41 [Permalink]
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| I always find it very interesting when I see the mindset of the fundamentalist at work in an atheist. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 08:15:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
I always find it very interesting when I see the mindset of the fundamentalist at work in an atheist. |
I'm not sure if he's got such an attitude, or if he's just insisting that religious people must. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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I… WTF…?
