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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 10:45:14 [Permalink]
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Actually, when dglas is talking about "absolutism", I think he's referring to the fundamentalists in each religious view, not everyone who's religious themselves.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2010 : 11:01:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by tomk80
I always find it very interesting when I see the mindset of the fundamentalist at work in an atheist. |
I'm not sure if he's got such an attitude, or if he's just insisting that religious people must.
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Is there a difference? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 11:27:42 [Permalink]
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Yeah, but do you think that the promoters of it really care? I'll bet that's what they want, it means more war and more opportunity for chest-beating and strutting. Where would the far-right be if they couldn't have the satisfaction of knowing that somewhere around the world some poor non-American trash were being bombed into oblivion? |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 11:50:59 [Permalink]
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Religions thrive on polarization and conflict. They are conflict-engines. That's what prescriptivity is all about. For religious interests, the best of all possible worlds is one in which all who follow are seen as good and all who do not are seen as evil - precisely two possibilities.
The "mosque at ground zero" is an attempt (on both sides) to paint matters in painfully simplistic terms. If you oppose the "mosque at ground zero," it is said you are a bigot and a tea-party pawn - no other possible options. If you don't oppose it, you are labeled a "liberal" and anti-christian - no other possible options. It has absurdly become an issue of competing absolutisms.
Never mind that both are absolutist dogmas. We have forgotten about that in the sound and the fury.
What is astonishing is how so many so-called "skeptics" have bought into the dichotomous polarization - so much so that no other approach or inquiry is tolerated, let alone considered.
The "mosque at ground zero" conflict is good for christianity *and* for islam because it polarizes people along religious lines. It is, however, not so good for advancing the subject matter - the discussion of the effects of prescriptive absolutism and the bare minimum requirement for any ideology to coexist with another (which is to say a willingness to coexist, to let others exist, a "live and let live" mentality - as opposed to a "convert or die" mentality).
Both islam and christianity are "convert or die" mentalities at their core. Christianity is just better paper-trained (for the moment anyway). Of course the "mosque at ground zero" thing shows us how tenuous and temporary the paper-training is. It takes an incredible lack of acuity, or an incredible distraction - a distraction like, say, a huge media event about a "mosque at ground zero" - to not realize this.
The signal is lost in the noise. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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| Edited by - dglas on 08/24/2010 12:09:24 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:08:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Actually, when dglas is talking about "absolutism", I think he's referring to the fundamentalists in each religious view, not everyone who's religious themselves.
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Not quite. I am talking about the dogma (the philosophy), not the people in it. The rigour of the people espousing to hold the philosophy is not my primary consideration on this point - the philosophy itself, and what it prescribes, is. This is my concern because I suspect, based on billions of evidence-examples and thousands of years, that dogma does have influence on people. I hold that prescriptivity is the function within a dogma that exerts that influence. Yes, I hold that ideas influence people.
My detractors seem to be claiming that since prescriptivity is not an absolute (entailing) cause that it therefore has no influence whatsoever, which again runs contradictory to billions of examples and thousands of years of evidence. Similarly, they seem to be claiming that since there are differences in interpretation of the dogma that there is no dogma - more, that there is no content, much less content with influence. That is patently absurd.
This is a little bit like saying that scientific skepticism has no content. Obviously it does, with respect to using external referents (empirical data) as the adjudicator of contentious viewpoints - which is a content radically different from the "true for me" mentality. A content it is nonetheless and it has influence. Not with everyone, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:43:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
My detractors seem to be claiming that since prescriptivity is not an absolute (entailing) cause that it therefore has no influence whatsoever... |
And that's utter nonsense. It may "seem" to you like that, but you're not asking, you're assuming that how things seems is how they really are and are attacking your "detractors" based on what is - to anyone - obviously wrong.| Similarly, they seem to be claiming that since there are differences in interpretation of the dogma that there is no dogma - more, that there is no content, much less content with influence. That is patently absurd. |
It's a strawman argument because it is absurd. Why do you insist on repeating it in the face of correction, and refuse to engage the actual arguments? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:46:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
What is astonishing is how so many so-called "skeptics" have bought into the dichotomous polarization - so much so that no other approach or inquiry is tolerated, let alone considered. |
Your conclusion here is nonsense. Your premise is flawed because again, you refuse to examine what people are actually saying. Unless you're talking about so-called "skeptics" on some other forum. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:57:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Actually, when dglas is talking about "absolutism", I think he's referring to the fundamentalists in each religious view, not everyone who's religious themselves.
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There is one absolutism that I subscribe to. Link here.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 13:23:26 [Permalink]
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Lost and forgotten in the drum und strang surrounding the Sacred Hole is this:
Supporters say church destroyed on 9/11 is being ignored in furor over mosque near ground zero
Supporters of a Greek Orthodox church destroyed on Sept. 11 say officials willing to speak out about a planned community center and mosque near ground zero have been silent on efforts to get the church rebuilt.
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Eh, whaddahell; they're Greek Orthodox and not real Christians, anyway. They don't need a new church.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 13:36:49 [Permalink]
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I'm waiting for dglas to get around to connecting his criticism of the "dogma" of Islam to his opposition to the NYC mosque. He keeps saying he wants to talk about the former (without really doing so), but the topic everyone else is commenting on is the latter. dglas, are you capable of elucidating your reasons for opposing the mosque or not?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 14:34:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I'm waiting for dglas to get around to connecting his criticism of the "dogma" of Islam to his opposition to the NYC mosque. He keeps saying he wants to talk about the former (without really doing so), but the topic everyone else is commenting on is the latter. dglas, are you capable of elucidating your reasons for opposing the mosque or not?
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He's said it a few times. Islam has books that contain some passages that instruct the people who follow that religion to do bad things. Therefore all muslims are intent on doing bad things, therefore all muslims are evil, therefore we should not let them build a mosque two blocks away from ground zero! Oh, and you can't trust muslims like imam Ralf who say they don't believe in following the parts of their books that would have them engage in violent acts against other humans(despite having gone their entire lives without ever having honor killed any of their daughters or even planning a terror attack). Because muslims are all liars, we all know that every muslim follows exactly the same belief systems and applies exactly the same dogma to their lives (ignore generations long war between islamic sects plz, k, thnks). They just lie to gain our trust, and then soon after they build their evil mosque it will become a command center for terrorists and other evil doers, for the sole purpose of terrorizing the US while attempting to force us to subvert and ignore our constitution (the success of this evil plan is a foregone conclusion, muslims will win!) in order to placate them!
That prettymuch sums up dglas's position here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 15:32:58 [Permalink]
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Sounds like Hitchens may be changing his stance on the issue.
http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/?from=rss
Emboldened by the crass nature of the opposition to the center, its defenders have started to talk as if it represented no problem at all and as if the question were solely one of religious tolerance. It would be nice if this were true. But tolerance is one of the first and most awkward questions raised by any examination of Islamism. We are wrong to talk as if the only subject was that of terrorism. As Western Europe has already found to its cost, local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything "offensive" to Islam. Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools. The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter …
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Initially I was most concerned about the constitution but last week I decided "Fuck those fuckers and their fucking mosque.". |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 08/24/2010 15:36:08 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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I… WTF…?
