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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
 Posted - 01/10/2011 : 17:37:06 [Permalink]
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| Today, modern ID is a totally science based discipline that has no ghosts, gods, fairies or leprechauns in it anywhere |
So what exactly is an "Intelligent Agent?"
| Darwinism provides no models at all for abiogenesis. |
Last time I checked, evolution explains what happened AFTER life on earth began, not before.
| 7) There is tons of positive evidence to support ID ranging from the fossil record to probability mathematics to science based comparison studies using semiotics to complex symbiotic systems found in nature to redundant systems found in genomes. |
Really? You have evidence? Why didn't you post it?
What has your ID science done? Has it brought us cures for diseases? Has it come up with new technologies to help feed the world? Would it be useful for diagnostics in the medical field?
Just so you know, the scientists that you listed in the beginning of your post were all before Darwin. And the actual evidence in the natural world backs up his theory, even today.
And just out of curiosity, do you think that the single cell flagellum will not work if one part is missing? |
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 17:50:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
Because I have studied the science, ID applies only real science, the 2nd law is real science, the 2nd law states that with spontaneous reactions, systems will tend to disorder... |
This completely ignores the concept of an isolated system. In non-isolated systems, energy can be added to the system to overcome any increase of entropy, thus eliminating the trend altogether. Furthermore, spontaneous reactions can decrease local entropy by dumping heat into the environment (again, not in an isolated system).
Obviously, I misspoke when I said before that your knowledge of thermodynamics begins and ends with SLOT. I gave you far too much credit. Your knowledge of thermodynamics begins and ends with a truncated and twisted form of SLOT that no physicist would ever hold.| ...genomes are systems that mutate with spontaneous mutations... |
But genomes are not isolated systems, and mutations due to radiation are not spontaneous.| ...and this is only rejected by those who choose to reject science they don't like to support their belief systems... |
Like you, Jerry. You ignore everything about SLOT that disagrees with your nutty ideas about what it should say.| All science is a tenet of ID. |
So you're saying that ID is nothing more than a synonym for science, yes? If so, then it must be a tenet of ID that SLOT doesn't apply to non-isolated systems like living organisms or their genomes, wouldn't you agree? It must be a tenet of ID that SLOT doesn't apply to non-spontaneous reactions like a gamma ray mutating a DNA strand, correct? And it must also be true that ID is taught in schools exactly as much as "other sciences," since all those sciences are ID, right? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 18:04:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
And I have refuted ALL of those who claimed I had no understanding of the presented papers. Would you like to have a go at it?
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Apparently you haven't. It did not take long for someone to respond to this comment stating that you have not adequately supported this claim. My getting involved in this thread was to ask you to address the legitimate concerns and questions, there is a list, that you have been avoiding.
I would also ask you to honestly consider why ID is not being taught as science in schools, even at an introductory level, such as ID 101.
Is it on par with the others? Meaning I guess equal to the others? No, it is not taught in schools nearly as much as the others but it is here if you want to study it.
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20+ years later ID is still not science without redefining science as Behe did under oath. If you'll keep an open mind you may come to the same conclusion that the majority of working scientists have already reached.
Take care of yourself, Jerry. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 18:38:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
Thanks for fixing that I cannot figure out how to place a link into certain words on here like I do in other forums.
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You're welcome. There are a few tutorials posted here:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=14
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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JerryB
Skeptic Friend
279 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 18:43:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by River Otter
So what exactly is an "Intelligent Agent?"
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Never heard of Maxwell Smart? Now there is an intelligent agent if I have ever seen one.
Last time I checked, evolution explains what happened AFTER life on earth began, not before.
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Well, you better check again because if there is not something there to evolve then the whole operation is shit out of luck.
Really? You have evidence? Why didn't you post it? |
Oh, I will, stick around.
| What has your ID science done? Has it brought us cures for diseases? Has it come up with new technologies to help feed the world? Would it be useful for diagnostics in the medical field? |
Yes, it has brought you cures for diseases. Louie Pasture was an excellent IDist. Do your kids benefit from vaccinations? How about Boyle, one of my favorite IDists and known as the father of chemistry, has chemistry brought any benefits to your life?
| Just so you know, the scientists that you listed in the beginning of your post were all before Darwin. And the actual evidence in the natural world backs up his theory, even today. |
YAWN...OK........Love your references.
And just out of curiosity, do you think that the single cell flagellum will not work if one part is missing?
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Um no, wanna catch up on the posts?? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 19:09:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
Yes, it has brought you cures for diseases. Louie Pasture was an excellent IDist. Do your kids benefit from vaccinations? |
How, exactly, are vaccinations and/or Louis Pasteur of ID derivation specifically, if all of science is "tenets of ID?"| How about Boyle, one of my favorite IDists... |
Why is Boyle an "IDist?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 19:28:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
No, ID does not attempt to explain the diversity of life, we leave that to biology.
And "life on earth in the present day isn't the same as it was a million years ago, and life on earth a million years ago wasn't the same as life on earth 100,000 million years ago..." really doesn't mean anything as to the origins of more complex life.
If it were seeded or designed in place, no one is saying that it all happened at once. I believe that certain life-forms were designed in the era that we see in the record.
So, if you don't think that my answer: ID has no overall theory was sufficient, please give me the theory of astronomy. If you can't, according to your logic, astronomy is not science either.
And I both identify the designer and propose a methodology for design. I just have not done the latter yet. One point at a time, please. |
None of this makes sense. You've taken a well-established term that has been applied specifically to an alternate theory to evolution as a way to explain the diversity of life on earth, and tried to apply it-- in a way I admit I cannot understand-- to some entire branch of ill-defined... science. Or something.
Your attempt to say that ID = astronomy or ID = physics lacks all sense. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 19:39:41 [Permalink]
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You're a great one to be asking for reference. 2/3 of your own claims are unreferenced. For example, Pasteur and Boyle; you have made an unsupported statement and need to back it up with reference.
So, how do you know that these two men were ID freaks?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 19:54:21 [Permalink]
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Missed this the first time around:Originally posted by JerryB
I believe that certain life-forms were designed in the era that we see in the record. |
Which "certain life-forms," specifically? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 20:13:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
Originally posted by River Otter
So what exactly is an "Intelligent Agent?"
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Never heard of Maxwell Smart? Now there is an intelligent agent if I have ever seen one.
Last time I checked, evolution explains what happened AFTER life on earth began, not before.
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Well, you better check again because if there is not something there to evolve then the whole operation is shit out of luck.
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I believe I will just go back to reading since what I would like to see explained has already by asked and presented in a convenient list. We'll see.
Take care of yourself Jerry. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 21:11:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
Originally posted by Hawks
One of my ID pet-peeves is the claim that ID predicts anything. It doesn't. But please, JerryB, let me, just like Dave_W, again ask you why you think ID predicts that genomes will degrade.
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Because I have studied the science, ID applies only real science, the 2nd law is real science, the 2nd law states that with spontaneous reactions, systems will tend to disorder, genomes are systems that mutate with spontaneous mutations and this is only rejected by those who choose to reject science they don't like to support their belief systems: Darwinists. All science is a tenet of ID. That's just one of them.
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You have to completely ignore the fact that the second law does not apply to open systems, completely ignore that even in closed systems it refers only to total entropy, and that localized entropy can decrease in any system (open or closed).
Then you have to ignore the ordering forces that are applied to organisms....
Basically you have to ignore the actual science to reach your conclusion Jerry.
But hey, willful ignorance is the specialty of IDtards.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 22:00:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Basically you have to ignore the actual science to reach your conclusion Jerry. |
I think Jerry is purposefully going out of his way to find obscure but easy-to-digest SLOT quotes, since he clearly hasn't bothered to read any technical articles on the subject.
Schrödinger's What is Life, FFS. There are more than a few good reasons why it's not used as a textbook. Jerry obviously has incorporated only a few choice quotes from it into his repertoire of talking points, and ignores Schrödinger's own words when the scientist disagrees with him. And, of course, Jerry's whole "you can tell him he's wrong" shtick, aside from being an obvious deflection, is nothing more than an argument from authority. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 23:37:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
So, if you don't think that my answer: ID has no overall theory was sufficient, please give me the theory of astronomy. If you can't, according to your logic, astronomy is not science either. |
Jerry, astronomy is a field of study. There are certainly well-established theories within astronomy, but it's nonsensical to ask for a theory of astronomy. Likewise, biology is the field of study of living things. ID purports to be an alternative to the theory of evolution as the best possible explanation for life on earth. So if there *is no* theory of intelligent design, then that's a big problem for you, and trying to compare it to a field of study does nothing to distract from that problem.
| And I both identify the designer and propose a methodology for design. I just have not done the latter yet. One point at a time, please. |
Whoa, what? How have you managed to identify the designers? I'd love to see how you worked that one out. And a methodology too! That's like the holy grail for IDers. I can hardly wait to hear it. But remember--just saying a magic man *poofed* things into existence using magic is not a methodology.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/10/2011 23:40:16 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 00:04:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JerryB
Originally posted by Hawks
One of my ID pet-peeves is the claim that ID predicts anything. It doesn't. But please, JerryB, let me, just like Dave_W, again ask you why you think ID predicts that genomes will degrade.
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Because I have studied the science, ID applies only real science, the 2nd law is real science, the 2nd law states that with spontaneous reactions, systems will tend to disorder, genomes are systems that mutate with spontaneous mutations and this is only rejected by those who choose to reject science they don't like to support their belief systems: Darwinists. All science is a tenet of ID. That's just one of them.
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Even if I was to give you your "thermodynamics applies to genomes" schtick for the sake of argument, ID would still not predict that genomes will degrade. Thermodynamics would. ID adds nothing to the conclusion. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 01:05:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by JerryB
Originally posted by Hawks
One of my ID pet-peeves is the claim that ID predicts anything. It doesn't. But please, JerryB, let me, just like Dave_W, again ask you why you think ID predicts that genomes will degrade.
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Because I have studied the science, ID applies only real science, the 2nd law is real science, the 2nd law states that with spontaneous reactions, systems will tend to disorder, genomes are systems that mutate with spontaneous mutations and this is only rejected by those who choose to reject science they don't like to support their belief systems: Darwinists. All science is a tenet of ID. That's just one of them.
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Even if I was to give you your "thermodynamics applies to genomes" schtick for the sake of argument, ID would still not predict that genomes will degrade. Thermodynamics would. ID adds nothing to the conclusion.
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Actually, genomes, not being closed systems, requiring a constant input of both matter and chemical energy, and being subjected to ordering forces, should lead a person to realize that SLOT has didly squat to say about genomes.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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An intro to Intelligent Design for skeptics
