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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2011 : 07:51:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
We, or at least not I, do not accept your premise that "if true ultimately his life is rendered meaningless".
This is not self-evident, because it is build on the false dilemma that god is the only thing that gives life any meaning.
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Then for what reason did naturalism/materialism create the universe/life?
Obviously the answer is for no reason. A naturalistic/materialistic created universe is a universe created void of any reason, meaning or purpose. It is suspended in a completely meaningless existence. I mean the billions/trillions of years of mass chaos and completely random/meaningless functions that would have had to have taken place before naturalism/materialism could even have had the remotest of odds of creating the universe and then getting to the point at which life began is a number that is not even comparable by the human brain. And never mind the question of where did the material for the materialism/naturalism come from? And then the billions/trillions of years of meaningless/random/chaotic functions that it would have taken naturalism/materialism to get from the first form of life to you is another number that would be so great the human mind would be unable to even comprehend it.
So please don't take this personal but that is why I find it laughable that little ol' you, who may get 100 years of existence in the universe at best, and who came from billions/trillions of years of chaotic/random/meaningless functions, and who's life will end in nothingness with out any self-identity or self-awareness, would have the audacity to actually believe that you can assign meaning to your life and insist that this is just not you burying your head in the sand to the realities of your meaningless life in the meaningless universe. From nothing you came and to nothing you shall return, in the materialistic/naturalism universe. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 07:53:05 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by moakley |
| When we die whatever meaning our lives had will be held by those we knew, still living. |
But of course in just a few short years those people who knew you will all be dead themselves. And so it all ends in meaningless nothingness, for all.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 08:05:08 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Nothing about my dad's life is meaningless to me or the other people who knew him. |
But of course in just a little while you and all the people who knew your dad will be dead yourselves. Everybody will have reached their destiny of nothingness. And it will be just as if your dad had never existed or spent time on this planet at all. All of his works and accomplishments here in this life will be proven meaningless and done in vain. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 02/09/2011 08:08:55 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 08:27:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Nothing about my dad's life is meaningless to me or the other people who knew him. |
But of course in just a little while you and all the people who knew your dad will be dead yourselves. Everybody will have reached their destiny of nothingness. And it will be just as if your dad had never existed or spent time on this planet at all. All of his works and accomplishments here in this life will be proven meaningless and done in vain.
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You want a list of non christians who are dead, some dead for thousands of years, who's lives still impact everything we do today? Can you possibly say that the lives of Shakespeare, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Archimedes, Copernicus (and a few hundred others I can name) had no meaning just because they are dead along with anyone who knew them personally?
Your pathetic shortsightedness and insensitivity is disgusting Bill. You and your ilk will have meaning after you die too Bill, your corpulent, rank, festering religion is a disease our species may never recover from.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 08:59:04 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dude |
| You want a list of non christians who are dead, some dead for thousands of years, who's lives still impact everything we do today? Can you possibly say that the lives of Shakespeare, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Archimedes, Copernicus (and a few hundred others I can name) had no meaning just because they are dead along with anyone who knew them personally? |
In universe where all life ends in nothingness, yes, I can say it. That which ends in nothingness is always rendered meaningless. Even if the effects of Aristotle go on for 10,000 years it will all end in nothingness, which of course renders all meaningless. Again we have a universe created without meaning or purpose and we have life itself created without meaning or purpose, in the materialistic/naturalistic universe. It is beyond me why little ol' you thinks you have the audacity and ability to assign meaning to your life while your living a meaningless life in a meaningless universe. Just because someone remembers you after you are dead does not give your life meaning. That person will die and end in nothingness. And the persons who knew him will die and end in nothingness etc...etc... etc... We can take this out as far as you want to go and if it ends in nothingness than all is rendered meaningless.
| Your pathetic shortsightedness and insensitivity is disgusting Bill. |
Coming from you I'll just dismiss that with a hand wave.
| You and your ilk will have meaning after you die too Bill, |
Only in a universe created by God. In the materialistic universe even my life has no meaning and will end in complete nothingness. I can accept that fact so why do you insist on burying your head in the sand here? If your going to talk the talk of the naturalism/materialism created universe then you need to walk the walk. You can't cherry pick out the parts of the materialistic universe that you like and then stick your head in the sand when it comes to the parts you do not like.
| your corpulent, rank, festering religion is a disease our species may never recover from. |
Don't sweat it. In the materialistic universe it will all end in meaningless nothingness anyway, no matter what you do with life. So don't get all worked up over little ol' me. It just ain't worth it when you consider our final destiny, nothingness. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 09:00:37 [Permalink]
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Bill, choosing to use this thread to revisit your bankrupt outlook is about as classless and UNchristian an act as one can imagine.
And I hate to break it to you, but your existence is even more meaningless than ours because yours is based on a lie
Not to play pop psychiatrist here, but I think Bill's confidence in his worldview was so shaken in the last discussion that he, like a true fanatic, has to double the intensity of his argument because he is unsure of his facts. In short, he has to tear down OUR worldview in order to build his own back up.
Bill, one would think that if you were truly confident in your worldview, there would be no need to debate it with us. What difference does it make to you what we think, unless of course you have nagging doubts yourself.
Bill, I'm still waiting for you to PROVE that there's an afterlife.
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"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 09:16:22 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| Bill, choosing to use this thread to revisit your bankrupt outlook is about as classless and UNchristian an act as one can imagine. |
I am sorry you feel that way.
| And I hate to break it to you, but your existence is even more meaningless than ours because yours is based on a lie |
Can meaningless have degrees? I thought something was either meaningless or it was not.
| Not to play pop psychiatrist here, but I think Bill's confidence in his worldview was so shaken in the last discussion that he, like a true fanatic, has to double the intensity of his argument because he is unsure of his facts. In short, he has to tear down OUR worldview in order to build his own back up. |
Keep your current job. Don't go for psychiatrist.
| Bill, one would think that if you were truly confident in your worldview, there would be no need to debate it with us. What difference does it make to you what we think, unless of course you have nagging doubts yourself. |
I could easily ask you the same question
| Bill, I'm still waiting for you to PROVE that there's an afterlife. |
Why? What does that have at all to do with the fact that a materialistic universe will have no purpose or meaning? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 09:41:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I am sorry you feel that way. |
It's not what I feel. It's a simple fact.
Can meaningless have degrees? I thought something was either meaningless or it was not. |
I know this makes the universe more complex for you, but nothing is black or white.
Keep your current job. Don't go for psychiatrist. |
Actually, we touched a nerve, which is why you're back debating a dead issue (no pun intended). So I'd say I nailed you pretty well. Not that you're all that difficult to read.
I could easily ask you the same question |
You have. I've answered. Yet you were -and still are- utterly incapable of grasping the concept.
Why? What does that have at all to do with the fact that a materialistic universe will have no purpose or meaning?
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Well, duh Bill, to prove your point-of-view perhaps? Otherwise why are you here trying to push your point of view on a topic thread in a completely inappropriate way. Wow, are you that dense? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 10:03:35 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| It's not what I feel. It's a simple fact. |
Your entitled to your opinion.
| I know this makes the universe more complex for you, but nothing is black or white. |
There are no degrees of meaninglessness.
| Actually, we touched a nerve, which is why you're back debating a dead issue (no pun intended). So I'd say I nailed you pretty well. Not that you're all that difficult to read. |
Again, I'd stick to my current job it I was you.
| Well, duh Bill, to prove your point-of-view perhaps? |
My point of view is that a materialist universe is a meaningless universe.
Fellow we are talking about the meaninglessness of the materialistic universe here. Nobody said anything about my beliefs on any afterlife but you. You seem to be under some delusion that I have to prove my beliefs on the afterlife in order to demonstrate that a materialistic universe is one without meaning. That is just silly. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 10:30:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Fripp
Bill, choosing to use this thread to revisit your bankrupt outlook is about as classless and UNchristian an act as one can imagine. |
I am sorry you feel that way. |
Fripp and Dude is not alone. I agree with both of them.
Of all threads available on SFN, you chose to soil this one.
Why not show you're Man enough, and take this disgussion to the original thread where it belongs.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 11:02:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Fripp
Bill, choosing to use this thread to revisit your bankrupt outlook is about as classless and UNchristian an act as one can imagine. |
I am sorry you feel that way. |
Fripp and Dude is not alone. I agree with both of them.
Of all threads available on SFN, you chose to soil this one.
Why not show you're Man enough, and take this disgussion to the original thread where it belongs.
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OK. Your point is taken. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 11:08:16 [Permalink]
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I think we a giving Bills blathering far too much attention.
On the whole, while we do assign meaning to our lives for reasons that have already been expressed here, and we do see the works of long dead people also gives meaning to our both our lives and their lives, because we build on those works, and while knowing that we will be worm food, many of us do our best to do what is right for future generations, even if they won't remember us or what contributions we made to better their lives. Even the mistakes we make will hopefully be something to learn from for future generations.
In the end, we are just one species of many and will surly become extinct as most other species have already, or eventually will. The Sun will take care of that if something else doesn't get us first, which is likely. Ultimately, all that we have done will be wiped out. We really are germs on the side of a rock spinning in space. And given the size of the universe, while we may be special in terms of the number of intelligent species out there, in the end all traces of our being here will be gone forever.
Our choices are to accept that inevitability and face it while doing our best to pass on something of value to those who come after us, and to have some impact on those who are here now. In that way we give our lives meaning, even with the knowledge that at some point in the future our universe will devour us and all that we have done.
The other choice is to create the illusion of meaning by creating a way to live forever. Bill derives comfort in that way. He is likely to end up just like the rest of us, but in the meantime he is comforted by the idea of an eternal life and doesn't understand why all of us don't feel the need to abandon reason for comfort sake. (Of course, he doesn't see it that way.) Bill's epiphany about meaning is just a reworking of Pacals Wager if you look at it closely. It's an attempt to scare us into abandoning reason for the the faith that he thinks makes his life meaningful by extending it forever.
Whatever... No matter who is right, our lives have the same meaning. We are either worm food, or in Bills version of what happens to us, we will live forever in a burning pit of hell, or spend it in heaven doing whatever it is they do there.
Pascaps Wager asks us to abandon reason. And while this may seem like the sensible thing to do for a guy like Bill and those who think like him, it isn't sensible. It's just more comfortable is all.
Bill. I was dead for a very long time before I was born and I can't remember it bothering me at all. What matters to me is the here and now. Go ahead and live forever. I don't care. Ultimately, whatever you contribute to this planet will vanish just like whatever I contribute will. All of what is here will eventually parish. My intention is to make my time here count by making this a better place for my children. You go ahead and spend it making plans for your everlasting life, just as the pharaohs of ancient Egypt did. It just doesn't matter...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 13:00:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by moakley |
| When we die whatever meaning our lives had will be held by those we knew, still living. |
But of course in just a few short years those people who knew you will all be dead themselves. And so it all ends in meaningless nothingness, for all.
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So your one and only argument has been that in order to avoid meaninglessness in death we have to adopt delusional thinking while living. While my and everyone else contention is that delusional thinking is only good for the living, the same fate awaits us all. I'm glad you have your security blanket, reality can be scary. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 19:43:17 [Permalink]
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| Well said, Kil. And Bill, you are truly a clueless, classless moron. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Wow!
