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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2011 : 09:10:04 [Permalink]
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| On the whole, while we do assign meaning to our lives for reasons that have already been expressed here, |
But in the materialistic universe there is no meaning and there are no reasons. So all your assigning is done in vain. Yes, your assigning of meaning and reasons to your life might make you feel better about your lot in the meaningless materialistic universe, but that still does not make them actual reasons and meanings. There is no reason or meaning in the materialistic universe.
| and we do see the works of long dead people also gives meaning to our both our lives and their lives, because we build on those works, |
It's not meaning. It's just an allusion of meaning. There is no meaning in the materialistic universe.
| and while knowing that we will be worm food, |
You try to assign meaning to your life anyway, right?
| many of us do our best to do what is right for future generations, even if they won't remember us or what contributions we made to better their lives. Even the mistakes we make will hopefully be something to learn from for future generations. |
Again, I can see where this might give you some hope in the meaningless universe, but the facts are that it is all done in vain. Yes this is cold. Yes this is harsh. Welcome to the materialistic universe, fellow.
| Ultimately, all that we have done will be wiped out. We really are germs on the side of a rock spinning in space. And given the size of the universe, while we may be special in terms of the number of intelligent species out there, in the end all traces of our being here will be gone forever. |
Which makes all done in this life in vain. In just a short while *poof* a lifetimes worth of work will turn into nothingness.
...in the end all traces of our being here will be gone forever.
Our choices are to accept that inevitability and face it. |
But many here seem to be struggling with this. They actually believe that they can assign meaning to their lives in the meaningless universe. Some even add qualifiers and insist that they have assigned temporal meaning to their lives rather then face the inevitable, which is that they are living a meaningless existence.
| while doing our best to pass on something of value to those who come after us, and to have some impact on those who are here now. In that way we give our lives meaning, even with the knowledge that at some point in the future our universe will devour us and all that we have done. |
But this is only an illusion of meaning that you have created in your mind.
| The other choice is to create the illusion of meaning by creating a way to live forever. |
A God created universe in the only universe that could have been created with meaning and purpose. If it was naturalism through materialism that created the universe then there is no meaning or purpose for the universe.
| Bill derives comfort in that way. He is likely to end up just like the rest of us, |
I will end up just like you. If this is a materialist universe then my destiny is nothingness, just as yours, which renders my life meaningless, just like yours. I have accepted this reality, why can't you?
| but in the meantime he is comforted by the idea of an eternal life and doesn't understand why all of us don't feel the need to abandon reason for comfort sake. |
This fascinates me because I am amazed at how many skeptics here bury their head in the sand and insist that they can assign their lives meaning when they know darn well, and fully acknowledge, that they live in a meaningless universe.
| (Of course, he doesn't see it that way.) Bill's epiphany about meaning is just a reworking of Pacals Wager if you look at it closely. It's an attempt to scare us into abandoning reason for the the faith that he thinks makes his life meaningful by extending it forever. |
This ain't a rework of anything. It's just the reality of the materialistic universe.
| Pascaps Wager asks us to abandon reason. And while this may seem like the sensible thing to do for a guy like Bill and those who think like him, it isn't sensible. It's just more comfortable is all. |
No one is asking you to abandoned reason but just to look at the reality of the materialistic universe. It's meaningless, period. Yes that is cold and harsh but welcome to the materialistic universe. If you subscribe to the theory of the materialistic universe then you have to accept the whole reality of the materialistic universe. You cannot cherry pick out the parts that you do not like or the parts that may make you uncomfortable. Sooooo, assigning meaning to your life does not give it meaning in the materialistic universe, period.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 02/10/2011 10:48:50 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2011 : 09:28:48 [Permalink]
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Ok, I'll bite. Why is it necessary for anything to have a "meaning" beyond the needs and ambitions of an human lifetime? After all, individually, all we are doing is running out the clock.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 10:46:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Ok, I'll bite. Why is it necessary for anything to have a "meaning" beyond the needs and ambitions of an human lifetime?
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In the meaningless materialistic universe there is no meaning before/during/or beyond the needs and ambitions of an human life. In the meaningless materialistic universe there is no assigned meaning, there is no temporal meaning and there is no self-meaning. In the meaningless universe there is NO meaning, period. What is so hard to understand about this reality? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 10:52:40 [Permalink]
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Bill:
No one is asking you to abandoned reason but just to look at the reality of the materialistic universe. It's meaningless, period. Yes that is cold and harsh but welcome to the materialistic universe. If you subscribe to the theory of the materialistic universe then you have to accept the whole reality of the materialistic universe. You cannot cherry pick out the parts that you do not like or the parts that may make you uncomfortable. Sooooo, assigning meaning to your life does not give it meaning in the materialistic universe, period. |
But Bill. You have missed my point over and over again and just repeated your mantra to me. So maybe this will work. I DON'T CARE!!! I will do what I'm going to do and you will do what you're going to do. And that's that.
And by the way. Maybe you should learn what cherry picking is before you accuse someone of cherry picking.
As an aside, philosophers have been pondering the meaning of life for many thousands of years. They are still doing it. It's warms my heart that you, Bill, a member of SFN has made the breakthrough and we can finally put that question to rest.
Maybe we should alert the press?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 11:34:05 [Permalink]
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| But Bill. You have missed my point over and over again and just repeated your mantra to me |
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No, you missed it. There is no temporary meaning, assigned meaning or self-meaning in the meaningless materialistic universe. There is no meaning, period, in a meaningless universe.
| I DON'T CARE!!! I will do what I'm going to do and you will do what you're going to do. And that's that. |
All I am waiting for is the acknowledgment that in the meaningless universe there is no assigned meaning, there is no temporal meaning and there is no self-meaning. There is no meaning, period, in the meaningless universe. All you have to do is acknowledge this reality and we are finished here.
| And by the way. Maybe you should learn what cherry picking is before you accuse someone of cherry picking. |
Oh good grief you guys are the ones trying to assign meaning in the meaningless materialistic universe here.
As an aside, philosophers have been pondering the meaning of life for many thousands of years. They are still doing it. It's warms my heart that you, Bill, a member of SFN has made the breakthrough and we can finally put that question to rest.
Maybe we should alert the press? |
There is no major breakthrough here. The fact that a universe created through naturalism/materialism would be a universe that is void of meaning, reason and purpose is really an easy reality to wrap the mind around. I am certainly not the first to observe this fact of reality. Shoot, while not a breakthrough, the point is is that in the meaningless materialist universe there is no meaning to life, so stop searching, the hunt is in vain.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 02/10/2011 11:49:44 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 11:39:53 [Permalink]
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| Bill is just playing his cards, by his religion's/myth's rules, to get him into his perceived afterlife heaven. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 11:53:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Randy
Bill is just playing his cards, by his religion's/myth's rules, to get him into his perceived afterlife heaven.
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Even if true, which it is not, this has no bearing at all on the reality of the materialistic/naturalistic universe being void of all meaning, reason and purpose. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 13:05:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Randy
Bill is just playing his cards, by his religion's/myth's rules, to get him into his perceived afterlife heaven.
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Even if true, which it is not, this has no bearing at all on the reality of the materialistic/naturalistic universe being void of all meaning, reason and purpose.
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Speaking of meaning, reason, and purpose....I just cleaned the house and put on a skillet of chicken and vegetables. A couple of friends tonight, with a bit of vino, are stopping over for good times. That simple statement Bill, just crushed your sour-pus view into oblivion.
To me, it's exciting to be alive and a part of a "materialistic/naturalistic universe being void of all meaning, reason and purpose". Thank you Bill, for that snapping succinct expression. It thrills me to no end to be here, alive as I am, as you are.
The big difference is I don't have the extra baggage of fanatical religious dogma to darken my perspective of other viewpoints. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 13:16:24 [Permalink]
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Bill:
All I am waiting for is the acknowledgment that in the meaningless universe there is no assigned meaning, there is no temporal meaning and there is no self-meaning. There is no meaning, period, in the meaningless universe. All you have to do is acknowledge this reality and we are finished here. |
Oh good grief.
Nothing that you have to say has any more meaning than what I assign to it. And since what I assign to what you have to say has no meaning (according to you, because I believe that both you and me are ultimately worm food), why in the hell would you insist that I agree with the entirety of your premis? Your premis has no meaning!!!
Up yours! <--- Don't be offended by this because it has no meaning.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 13:26:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
But in the materialistic universe there is no meaning and there are no reasons. |
This has been repeatedly demonstrated to you to be untrue, Bill. You have lost this argument, and repeating yourself like a broken pull-string doll can only serve to further reveal your intellectual limitations.
Short summary of this discussion:
Bill: There is no light in this cave. It is utterly dark.
SFN: Here, I'll turn on my flashlight.
Bill: That is not a light. In a lightless cave, no light is possible.
SFN: No, it clearly is possible. See? My flashlight is on. [shines the light in Bill's eyes]
Bill: That is not a light. In a lightless cave, no light is possible.
SFN: Oh, for fuck's sake.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 14:27:22 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Randy |
| Speaking of meaning, reason, and purpose....I just cleaned the house and put on a skillet of chicken and vegetables. A couple of friends tonight, with a bit of vino, are stopping over for good times. That simple statement Bill, just crushed your sour-pus view into oblivion. |
| To me, it's exciting to be alive and a part of a "materialistic/naturalistic universe being void of all meaning, reason and purpose". |
Your contradicting yourself. In one breath you claim to have demonstrated meaning, reason and purpose in your life while in the next breath you claim to enjoy living in a materialistic universe that is void of meaning, reason and purpose. You can't have it both ways.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 14:30:17 [Permalink]
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Oh good grief.
Nothing that you have to say has any more meaning than what I assign to it. And since what I assign to what you have to say has no meaning (according to you, because I believe that both you and me ar ultimately worm food), why in the hell would you insist that I agree with the entirety of your premis? |
Because on one hand you agree that the materialistically created universe/life is meaningless but then on the other hand you try and assign self-meaning to your life. The universe was either created meaningless and void of meaning, reason or purpose or it was created with meaning, reason and purpose. There are no degrees of meaninglessness. And if the universe was created with reason, purpose and meaning than this is not a universe created by naturalism/materialism.
| Up yours! <--- Don't be offended by this because it has no meaning |
I wasn't.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 14:31:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
But in the materialistic universe there is no meaning and there are no reasons. |
This has been repeatedly demonstrated to you to be untrue, Bill. You have lost this argument, and repeating yourself like a broken pull-string doll can only serve to further reveal your intellectual limitations.
Short summary of this discussion:
Bill: There is no light in this cave. It is utterly dark.
SFN: Here, I'll turn on my flashlight.
Bill: That is not a light. In a lightless cave, no light is possible.
SFN: No, it clearly is possible. See? My flashlight is on. [shines the light in Bill's eyes]
Bill: That is not a light. In a lightless cave, no light is possible.
SFN: Oh, for fuck's sake.
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That was retarded. But before we go any further if the universe was created through naturalism/materialism is it a universe created with purpose, meaning and reason or is it a universe created without reason, purpose or meaning?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 14:52:31 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Because on one hand you agree that the materialistically created universe/life is meaningless but then on the other hand you try and assign self-meaning to your life. The universe was either created meaningless and void of meaning, reason or purpose or it was created with meaning, reason and purpose. There are no degrees of meaninglessness. And if the universe was created with reason, purpose and meaning than this is not a universe created by naturalism/materialism. |
Sorry, but your response to my post has no meaning. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 15:04:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
But in the materialistic universe there is no meaning and there are no reasons. |
This has been repeatedly demonstrated to you to be untrue, Bill. You have lost this argument, and repeating yourself like a broken pull-string doll can only serve to further reveal your intellectual limitations.
Short summary of this discussion:
Bill: There is no light in this cave. It is utterly dark.
SFN: Here, I'll turn on my flashlight.
Bill: That is not a light. In a lightless cave, no light is possible.
SFN: No, it clearly is possible. See? My flashlight is on. [shines the light in Bill's eyes]
Bill: That is not a light. In a lightless cave, no light is possible.
SFN: Oh, for fuck's sake.
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That was retarded. But before we go any further if the universe was created through naturalism/materialism is it a universe created with purpose, meaning and reason or is it a universe created without reason, purpose or meaning?
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Bill, it is you that must have some sort of mental deficiency.
It seems that you just cannot understand that these are two seperate issues although they are related.
Creation of universe: Act of phyisics void of "meaning"
Sentient Beings: Another result of physics. Sentient beings have the ability to reason and feel. "Meaning" is a subjective term and varies by individual. "Meaning" for one individual has the ability to affect future generations of sentient beings. This type of "meaning" is not going to last forever or have any effect on the universe as a whole.
How many different ways does this concept need to be explained for you to understand?
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Wow!
