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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2011 : 06:27:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
I did not endow the aliens with uniforms, clothing or motivations, I promise. Maybe I should be more descriptive. and I didn't use the word "spaceships", I said vehicles. But you're right in the sense that I bring a strictly human frame of reference to the situation and my interpretation of events, is it possible to do otherwise? Further, these are human words I'm using, English specifically, being my primary method of communication. No matter what language we speak, we are limited and defined by our humanity. But these tools of human communication and reference are solid enough to get us to the moon, so let's not dismiss their ability to effectively discuss an alien race. We can try.
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Actually you did say "uniforms/clothing" and you did say "ships" in your first post, unless they came from Africa I'd say that means "spaceships", if you are not here to prove it, why are you here, when our stated goal on EVERYTHING is "Show us the proof" |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 08:49:28 [Permalink]
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| Let me be "mean-spirited" and suggest that the evidence we can expect will be, in what is most likely lots of short posts, "blah, blah"... |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 09:51:34 [Permalink]
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Thanks again for the kind responses, I appreciate that greatly.
As to Big Papa Smurf, you might find that your insults are more effective when spelled correctly.
And you may want to define exactly what evidence I can provide in a chatroom that would make you happy, and please be specific.
If you feel let down by my account of alien contact maybe you shouldn't invest any more time in reading it. I won't be offended if you stop reading. Maybe you find your time has been better spent petulantly demanding someone drop the corpse of an alien at your feet. As I said, I cannot change your mind, only you can do that. You are free to set whatever evidential threshold you choose, of course. Just let me know what that standard is, so we can stop pretending anything I could say would be good enough for you.
You ask:
| if you are not here to prove it, why are you here, when our stated goal on EVERYTHING is "Show us the proof" |
and Hawk adds his own short post:
| Let me be "mean-spirited" and suggest that the evidence we can expect will be, in what is most likely lots of short posts, "blah, blah"... |
Again, what evidence do you want me to provide, by typing in an internet forum, that will convince you that ETS are here?
By 'blah blah', Hawk insinuates that I'm only providing words. Is he doing more?.
Your stated goal is a laudable one "show us the proof", but the fact is, you yourself could not successfully prove in this forum what you had for breakfast last Sunday. Oh, you could show a picture or video of you eating , but we all know such things are easily photoshopped. You could provide witness statements from all the witnesses in the diner who saw you eat it, but that's simply anecdotal, right?
So no one here can "prove" something so simple as last Sunday's breakfast in this chatroom, yet you set up a charade where you pretend you think I'd be able to once and for all settle the alien question to everyone's satisfaction. And, unless I could do so here in this forum, then anything I have to say is worthless. Is that open-mindedness in action?
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 10:50:07 [Permalink]
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So why choose a skeptic forum? Why here of all places if you have no interest in trying to make us believe you? There isn't one regular poster here who is going to take your word for it, are you a masochist?
Good job on on thwarting me with my spelling errors, good bye everyone.
/seppuku |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 10:53:31 [Permalink]
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Let me apologize for the double post, I'm new here, my mistake, it won't happen again I hope.
Filthy writes:
I have but a couple of questions: 1) how did these creatures cover such unimaginally vast distances when the upward speed limit is that of light, and 2) why would they bother to visit our racketty little mudball in the first place? What is so attractive about us and our world that they must visit?
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Nice to meet you , Filthy, great questions you ask.
1.)You claim the upper speed limit is that of light, I assume you mean for both human and alien.
Didn't experiments at the University of Rochester succeed in sending light backwards FASTER than the speed of light? http://aboutfacts.net/Science49.htm
Didn't German physicists back in 2007 send microwave photons instantaneously, faster than the speed of light? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3303699/We-have-broken-speed-of-light.html
Didn't scientists in Tennessee experimentally demonstrate that sound waves can travel at velocities faster than the speed of light? http://www.physorg.com/news88249076.html
If the speed of light is no longer the limit even for human science, I certainly don't feel comfortable stating that it is a limit for aliens. Humans went from horseback to the moon in a single century. Now we're breaking the speed of light barrier. It's unwise to assume the scientific limitations of a technological society centuries, millennia, perhaps millions of years more advanced than our own.
Having said that, I'm not convinced that these beings travel inter-stellarly in the first place. I don't think that is accurate.
Then you ask: "why would they bother to visit our racketty little mudball in the first place? What is so attractive about us and our world that they must visit?"
To which I would answer, have you looked at the rest of the solar system? Spend a week or two on Neptune. Or Mercury. or Jupiter, or the moons. Then tell me how lousy the Earth is. This planet is a rare jewel, vast oceans of liquid water, amazing bio-diversity, just the right temperature range, natural resources. An atmosphere, a moon big enough to add rotational stability. Earth is priceless, a miraculous place, though it's easy for us to forget that these days. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 11:08:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Maybe you find your time has been better spent petulantly demanding someone drop the corpse of an alien at your feet. As I said, I cannot change your mind, only you can do that. You are free to set whatever evidential threshold you choose, of course. Just let me know what that standard is, so we can stop pretending anything I could say would be good enough for you.
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An alien corpse would be a very good start. Far superior to a personal testimony of alien abduction.
Your stated goal is a laudable one "show us the proof", but the fact is, you yourself could not successfully prove in this forum what you had for breakfast last Sunday.
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What I had for breakfast is not an extraordinary claim.
... yet you set up a charade where you pretend you think I'd be able to once and for all settle the alien question to everyone's satisfaction.
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No. I do not think anyone expected that.
And, unless I could do so here in this forum, then anything I have to say is worthless. Is that open-mindedness in action?
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Yes, I am willing to change my mind, but it will take extraordinary evidence. Testimonials do not rise to the level necessary. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2011 : 11:44:24 [Permalink]
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Well, okay. I'm going to buck the trend here. Not that I don't agree with my fellow skeptics on the substantive issues involved. But I would like to hear the story. And probably for the same reason I go to see faith healers (like Braco) at the Conscious Life Expo, which I did just a couple of weeks ago. (Report in the works.)
There are many theories that explain alien abduction that don't include actually being abducted by aliens. But just like the woman who told me of her belief that her child was abused by the satanic cult at the McMartin preschool, I would like the chance to evaluate and perhaps have the chance to look over the literature on the explanations that our readers (and me) might not be aware of. I agree that physical evidence would be the only way to substantiate an alien abduction claim, but this also goes to other areas that I have an interest in and that I believe should be of interest to skeptics in general. The reliability of eye witness accounts and memory being a couple of those things. Hell, Carl Sagan named his last book after his take on claims of alien abductions. (Demon Haunted World refers to similar claims of demon abduction before UFO's entered our psyche and became a modern version of the phenomena, according to Sagan.)
In my view, we've just been handed a gift wrapped box. Lets see what's under the wrapping paper, eh?
I think I should also point out that there is the investigatory part of skepticism that leads to a determination about the truth value of a claim. And while that often leads to a debunking, debunking isn't the primary goal of our efforts.
So count me in. I'm all ears (or eyes as the case may be.)
Welcome to SFN, le Penseur.
Edited. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 12:36:47 [Permalink]
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What was the address of your house in which this episode transpired?
How many siblings do you have (did you have at that time), and how many rooms were there in the house?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 12:45:04 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur.....
First, as a relatively prolific member of SFN, allow me to apologize for the somewhat rude and antagonistic nature of some of the response that you have and will continue to receive here. It is unfortunate, but it is pretty much the structure of the proscribed attitude that has been established for some time here, and even tho' some like myself and a few others do not subscribe to ridicule, (except for Republicans) and words like "moron", "retard" , etc. as response to serious attempts to discuss a subject like UAP, you will likely see barrages of such insult coming your way soon.
Personally, as I have explained here at great length recently, I am substantially agnostic regarding the presumed "true" nature of UAP and similar subjects. To me - that is to say that it is my opinion - much of what has been presented in the print and electronic media is indeed fraud, hallucination, and just plain bullshit. But I am also reasonably certain that there is a significant percentage of such reported phenomena that is neither fraudulent, hallucinogenic, nor necessarily false.
When a person like yourself comes on the scene and courteously and repectfully requests, as you have done, an audience for hearing unusual experiences that you have had involving possible ETs, my reaction is to neither accept unconditionally nor to reject out-of-hand the validity of the experiences you relate.
First, I would like to hear as much as possible of your personal narrative before forming an opinion as to it's verity. You are already hearing loud cries for "evidence". You will hear a great deal more of that if you choose to remain as a target for vilification. Personally, I would like to hear as much as you may be able to tell us of your experiences before I come to any conclusions as to what "evidence" may be necessary to establish credibility. Rest assured, this member of SFN will not prejudge your presentation.
So please, continue with as much detail as your memory provides you of your experiences with ET life forms. Of course, "evidence" will need to be addressed later after the narrative is as complete as possible. But I would be fascinated to hear the sum of what it is that you have experienced. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 12:51:32 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur, were any of your memories of these abductions "recovered" with the aid of hypnosis?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 14:07:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Let me apologize for the double post, I'm new here, my mistake, it won't happen again I hope.
Filthy writes:
I have but a couple of questions: 1) how did these creatures cover such unimaginally vast distances when the upward speed limit is that of light, and 2) why would they bother to visit our racketty little mudball in the first place? What is so attractive about us and our world that they must visit?
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Nice to meet you , Filthy, great questions you ask.
1.)You claim the upper speed limit is that of light, I assume you mean for both human and alien.
Didn't experiments at the University of Rochester succeed in sending light backwards FASTER than the speed of light? http://aboutfacts.net/Science49.htm
Didn't German physicists back in 2007 send microwave photons instantaneously, faster than the speed of light? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3303699/We-have-broken-speed-of-light.html
Didn't scientists in Tennessee experimentally demonstrate that sound waves can travel at velocities faster than the speed of light? http://www.physorg.com/news88249076.html
If the speed of light is no longer the limit even for human science, I certainly don't feel comfortable stating that it is a limit for aliens. Humans went from horseback to the moon in a single century. Now we're breaking the speed of light barrier. It's unwise to assume the scientific limitations of a technological society centuries, millennia, perhaps millions of years more advanced than our own.
Having said that, I'm not convinced that these beings travel inter-stellarly in the first place. I don't think that is accurate.
Then you ask: "why would they bother to visit our racketty little mudball in the first place? What is so attractive about us and our world that they must visit?"
To which I would answer, have you looked at the rest of the solar system? Spend a week or two on Neptune. Or Mercury. or Jupiter, or the moons. Then tell me how lousy the Earth is. This planet is a rare jewel, vast oceans of liquid water, amazing bio-diversity, just the right temperature range, natural resources. An atmosphere, a moon big enough to add rotational stability. Earth is priceless, a miraculous place, though it's easy for us to forget that these days.
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Sorry, but I can't buy that pig in a poke. With the exception of one of your links, the scientists are not even named. And you have not referenced any legitamate, peer-reviewed, scientific journals; merely news sources. I rather think that had Einstein had been proven wrong, it would be all but banner headlines in every journal out there except Copeia (of which I was once a member). Therefore, until solid evidence is published in one of these respected organs, I must put it down to ancedote.
As for "centuries, milina, millions of years," that is speculation. Speculation is a valuable starting point in science but is worthless until supporting evidence is in hand. And even then, the experiment must be repeatable. Remember Fleischmann–Pons? It made great headlines at the time, and there are still people puttering around trying to repeat that one. To no avail thus far.
"Extraordinary claims require extrodinary evidence," as has been quoted on these boards many times. That's a very stiff requirement and at this writing, no extraordinary evidence has been forthcoming.
I have a speculation: I speculate that it is entirely possible no other sentient life exists in the galaxy. Do I have evidence to back that up? Nope. It's merely a speculation, one that I rather doubt will ever be supported in the remaining human lifetime.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 16:01:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
As to Big Papa Smurf, you might find that your insults are more effective when spelled correctly.
And you may want to define exactly what evidence I can provide in a chatroom that would make you happy, and please be specific.
If you feel let down by my account of alien contact maybe you shouldn't invest any more time in reading it. I won't be offended if you stop reading. Maybe you find your time has been better spent petulantly demanding someone drop the corpse of an alien at your feet. As I said, I cannot change your mind, only you can do that. You are free to set whatever evidential threshold you choose, of course. Just let me know what that standard is, so we can stop pretending anything I could say would be good enough for you. |
Well, that's even more hostile than what BPS said to you. I know bngbuck is egging you on in this direction (just like he's baiting me and a couple others with his latest comments in this thread), but if you keep escalating the rudeness and antagonism, I predict you'll burn out very early on. You're clearly not just a victim here, but a willing participant in the flinging of vitriol. So I mention again: so much for doing the best you can - you have chosen to play in the mud.
You could have, for example, just talked about what you want to talk about and ignored any nastiness you might have perceived, but instead you chose to engage in a pissing match about standards of evidence on an Internet forum. Now, I don't mind pissing matches, but you seemed to be earlier stating your aversion to such theatrics. Is it really more important to you to discuss the tone of the others here than what you really want to discuss? Is that what you want to spend your time on? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 16:08:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
By 'blah blah', Hawk insinuates that I'm only providing words. Is he doing more?. |
I'm right so far, aren't I? And what else am I supposed to do?
| So no one here can "prove" something so simple as last Sunday's breakfast in this chatroom, yet you set up a charade where you pretend you think I'd be able to once and for all settle the alien question to everyone's satisfaction. And, unless I could do so here in this forum, then anything I have to say is worthless. |
While we're talking philosophy, let me add that you can't prove to yourself that your are sitting in front of a computer when reading this. Or that you are even reading at all.
| Is that open-mindedness in action? |
I'm sure that you've heard the expression that it's good to be open-minded - just not to the extent that your brain falls out.
So, are you open to the ideas that your alien-stories are a hoax perpetuated by some sort of deity? Or a hoax by humans? Or that you are a brain in a vat? Or that you have periodic psychotic episodes?
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 17:30:54 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| I know bngbuck is egging you on in this direction (just like he's baiting me and a couple others with his latest comments in this thread) |
Your perspicacity is exceeded only by your bubbling good humor, Dave! Eggs, bait, vitriol, all in the same sentence! In a Universe of continual change, it is comforting to note that some things and some people remain perfectly predictable! As to escalation, what goes up, must come down! Perhaps we all should use the stairs? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 18:24:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Eggs, bait, vitriol, all in the same sentence! |
'Vitriol' appeared in the subsequent sentence. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
