|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:07:26 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by le Penseur
kil: | Yes, those are insults. No, they are not hate speech. |
Sorry kil, but several nations ban such attacks on me for my beliefs as hate speech. see references above
|
You are smoking crack.
You can't find one case, not one, in any of those countries where a person has had criminal charges laid against them for insulting another person.
All that aside anyway.... this is the US. I am allowed to publish an article about you fucking your mom, about how drunk you get on a regular basis, and about how much of a degenerate asshole you actually are. Supreme Court says that it isn't a civil or criminal offense even if every word is false.
This is a public forum, anyone can participate. When you step up onto the public stage you invite criticism of your statements.
Then there is the matter of your intolerable hypocrisy. You have delivered your own share of insults here, in fact you are the one who started the insults.
So let me see if I can summarize:
You willingly joined a public forum.
You initiated a conversation that you knew, from past experience in other skeptic forums, would invite harsh criticism.
You were initially treated well, no one jumped in feet first calling you a delusional fuckwit. You weren't insulted until you delivered the initial hostility.
You are pissed off because people, in a civil manner, describe the problems with your insane story, so you responded with name calling.
Now that people have tired of your stupidity and insulted you in turn, you are claiming to be a victim of hate speech.
Conclusion: You are a troll. Your entire purpose here is to try and stir up a shit flinging contest, you are entirely uninterested in talking about your alleged abduction by aliens (evidenced by your total lack of response to Bill Buck's questions, even I would like to see your answers... for reasons different than Bill's though).
You have no interest in an actual conversation here, you have ignored the vast majority of every one's questions, you can't provide a single bit of evidence or argument that stands up to scrutiny, you can't share your method of determining when it is ok to trust the government and not trust it, you can't share your method for analyzing UFO videos, you can't share with us your own videos, you ignore and laugh off all suggestions for what would constitute real evidence, and your are now pretending to be a victim. In a skeptics public forum.
I'll hand it to you, you are the best troll we have had here in a long time, right up until you took it to far with the "victim of hate speech" thing. You douchebags think your just out for fun, but what you don't understand is that you provide us an opportunity to publicly analyze and discuss issues or topics that are surrounded by a lot of misinformation. That is one of the reasons why SFN doesn't ban trolls and kooks outright, like a lot of other skeptic sites do.
With your attitude and behavior here, the funny part is, if there really were aliens abductions happening, you only make it less likely anyone will ever believe you.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
 |
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:10:36 [Permalink]
|
Le Penseur
| You bet Bngbuck. Maybe we can talk on the phone. |
I love it when you talk dirty! Your place or mine? |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:31:26 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by le Penseur
To be serious, yes, such statements could in some places and some cases could be actionable as hate speech.
In South Africa, for example: 10. (1) Subject to the proviso in section 12, no person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to -
(a) be hurtful;
(b) be harmful or to incite harm;
(c) promote or propagate hatred.[23]
The crime of crimen injuria ("unlawfully, intentionally and seriously impairing the dignity of another")[24] may also be used to prosecute hate speech.[25] |
|
We've done nothing actionable there. The bill as passed inserts "based on one or more of the prohibited grounds" before "against any person," and the "prohibited grounds" are things like race, religion, sex, etc. Thinking you've been aboard a UFO does not define such a protected group.Even a stronger case that those comments insulting me and calling me insane for believing in aliens would be considered hate speech: | Norway prohibits hate speech, and defines it as publicly making statements that threaten or ridicule someone or that incite hatred, persecution or contempt for someone due to their skin colour, ethnic origin, homosexual life style or orientation or, religion or PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE (caps mine). |
|
That you claim you've been abducted is not a "PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE" in any sense of the term.In the Netherlands too, your attacks on me, and on my sanity, for my belief in aliens is hate speech :
The Dutch penal code prohibits both insulting a group (article 137c) and inciting hatred, discrimination or violence (article 137d). The definition of the offences as outlined in the penal code is as follows:
* Article 137c: He who publicly, orally, in writing or graphically, intentionally expresses himself insultingly regarding a group of people because of their race, their religion or their life philosophy, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, psychological or mental disability, shall be punished by imprisonment of no more than a year or a monetary penalty of the third category.[17]
* Article 137d: He who publicly, orally, in writing or graphically, incites hatred against, discrimination of or violent action against person or belongings of people because of their race, their religion or their life philosophy, their gender, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation of their physical, psychological or mental disability, shall be punished by imprisonment of no more than a year or a monetary penalty of the third category.[18] |
|
You would have to claim that you are mentally disabled for these laws to apply to you, but you've already claimed otherwise.| Starting to realize your intolerance is illegal in many places, as hate speech? |
Your WikiFail hasn't made me realize anything.| I hope this lesson is sinking in. You'd be doing time in Holland. |
Only if you insist, contrary to what you've written, that you're insane. Otherwise, you'd be doing time there, too, for your attacks on my sanity. That legal sword cuts both ways.
So by your definitions, I guess I can justifiably call you bigoted and intolerant. And if you are going to engage in what you think is "hate speech" on our forums, I will start warning you. If you're going to whine about being a victim of hate speech after a few insults, and citing the law at me to make your case, then it's in our best legal interest to get you to stop breaking the law on our website, isn't it? We can't afford lawsuits, so it's better to pre-emptively protect ourselves by having a zero-tolerance policy towards illegal acts on our pages. We already have such a policy, so you're saying that I should execute it against your hate speech. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:33:20 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Fripp
Resorting to name-calling and playground taunts...
|
Call it by it's real name: Hate speech. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:11:10 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by le Penseur
Sorry kil, but several nations ban such attacks on me for my beliefs as hate speech. see references above
|
In order to make it stick, you'll need to quote the offending paragraph(s), link to the post so we can clearly identify it, then please explain to us how it can be interpreted as hate-speech according to which paragraph.
USA, which is where you live, is all about free speech. I don't know if there's any specific laws that apply in the state of New York, but the SFN server is operated from California in which case NY law may not apply for what is posted here. I'm not a lawyer, so I couldn't say how you'd sort it out.
Both South Africa and Netherlands has an ugly history regarding hate speech, and their sensitivity is reflected in their law to the detriment of free speech.
In Netherlands, they are afraid that saying bad things about muslims will incite them to make violence. Which happens, by the way. I sure one of our Dutch members can fill us in on that.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:28:51 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by H. Humbert
None of the statues you quote apply to individual insults. Believing you have been abducted by aliens does not qualify as a "philosophy of life" for example. |
Let's have another look at the Netherlands statue that le Penseur quoted. Without linking to the quoted site, as is right and proper...
The first group does not apply to le Penseur personally, but it applies to him as a member of the self-appointed group of alien-abductees:
| * Article 137c: He who publicly, orally, in writing or graphically, intentionally expresses himself insultingly regarding a group of people because of their race, their religion or their life philosophy, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, psychological or mental disability, shall be punished by imprisonment of no more than a year or a monetary penalty of the third category. |
Emphasis above mine. If it was determined that alien-abductees as a group really had a disability of the brain, then this paragraph would have merit. But since we haven't conclusively established that le Penseur is mentally or psychologically unwell, he does not qualify as a protected group by the paragraph above. I suppose bngbuck and Michelle could make a cursory analysis regarding his mental state, just as well as le Penseur had his unqualified girlfriend make judgements based on a few samples about who's an Internet troll and who's not.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:32:42 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by le Penseur
davew : | Calling a person stupid, ignorant or insane is hate speech? |
It ain't love speech, angry baby. |
Logic fail.
Formal Logical Fallacy: False dichotomy.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:35:37 [Permalink]
|
Dude.....
Man, you pay your Club dues daily, don't you? Great rant, Dude! However,....... | ...(evidenced by your total lack of response to Bill Buck's questions,....) |
Le Penseur
You bet Bngbuck. Maybe we can talk on the phone. |
........maybe I'll have (and get) the last word after all!| even I would like to see your answers... for reasons different than Bill's though). |
I'll be goddamned! I thought you were skeptical about ESP. And yet you actually possess mind-reading powers. How does that go down. Dude? |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:41:54 [Permalink]
|
Mabuse.....
| I suppose bngbuck and Michelle could make a cursory analysis regarding his mental state, just as well as le Penseur had his unqualified girlfriend make judgements based on a few samples about who's an Internet troll and who's not. |
Try Alienist. She's an MD psychiatrist with considerable field experience in therapy. I've had none. |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 03/22/2011 12:27:00 |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:08:52 [Permalink]
|
Le Penseur......
Dave
I will start warning you |
Better take care, LP. Dave is an owner and administrator of SFN and can and will use the deadly BAN power if he gets sufficiently pissed! Have you saved my phone number? If you are banned, I really hope to hear from you soon. Thanks, LP, I have been fascinated by your narrative and I desperately want to hear more and ask more questions! |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:09:53 [Permalink]
|
Dude:
All that aside anyway.... this is the US. I am allowed to publish an article about you fucking your mom, about how drunk you get on a regular basis, and about how much of a degenerate asshole you actually are. Supreme Court says that it isn't a civil or criminal offense even if every word is false. |
That's not entirely true. Libel and slander are both actionable in civil court if it can be shown that the the libelous claims are false and that they lead to damage of a reputation or other kinds of harm. One exception is parody or satire of a public figure, which is protected speech because parody is, by the very fact that it is parody, not to be taken as a factual representation of the person it's aimed at. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:17:30 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Kil
That's not entirely true. Libel and slander are both actionable in civil court if it can be shown that the the libelous claims are false and that they lead to damage of a reputation. |
Since le Penseur has maintained his anonymity by neither acknowledging or denying that he is the person in the video I posted earlier, his reputation cannot possibly be damaged by anything said here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:26:20 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
That's not entirely true. Libel and slander are both actionable in civil court if it can be shown that the the libelous claims are false and that they lead to damage of a reputation. |
Since le Penseur has maintained his anonymity by neither acknowledging or denying that he is the person in the video I posted earlier, his reputation cannot possibly be damaged by anything said here.
|
True. But I was responding to Dude's, anything goes according to the Supreme Court claim. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:32:53 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by bngbuck
Better take care, LP. Dave is an owner and administrator of SFN and can and will use the deadly BAN power if he gets sufficiently pissed! |
It's not a matter of getting angry. le Penseur has cited Wikipedia to assure us that our speech about mental states (and thus his own) is "hate speech," but in registering for our forums, he agreed that he "will not post any information which... violates any laws." If he wants me to agree that things said in this thread are hate speech, then he must want me to agree that his own comments have violated the Registration Agreement of the SFN.
There's no anger in this, just simple logic. If le Penseur wants certain legal standards applied, then they must apply to him, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:51:12 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by bngbuck
...can and will use the deadly BAN power if he gets sufficiently pissed! |
Bullshit! Unadulterated bullshit! 
I can't recall one single summary (or otherwise) banning made which could be linked to Dave_W's. emotional state during my time as moderator for SFN. I don't believe you can point to one either. Which makes your statement libelous. (Unless you could in fact name any such member. My memory could be in error, so I'm open to be proven wrong about this.)
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
