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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2011 : 15:15:30 [Permalink]
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Well surprise, surprise, the first reports of boots on the ground coming in and we will soon be arming the rebels. Both clear violations of the mandate. But when has this guy followed any rules other than his own?
Reuters) - President Barack Obama has signed a secret order authorizing covert U.S. government support for rebel forces seeking to oust Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, government officials told Reuters on Wednesday.
Obama signed the order, known as a presidential "finding", within the last two or three weeks, according to government sources familiar with the matter.
Such findings are a principal form of presidential directive used to authorize secret operations by the Central Intelligence Agency. This is a necessary legal step before such action can take place but does not mean that it will.
The CIA and the White House declined immediate comment.
News that Obama had given the authorization surfaced as the President and other U.S. and allied officials spoke openly about the possibility of sending arms supplies to Gaddafi's opponents, who are fighting better-equipped government forces.
The United States is part of a coalition, with NATO members and some Arab states, which is conducting air strikes on Libyan government forces under a U.N. mandate aimed at protecting civilians opposing Gaddafi.
Interviews by U.S. networks on Tuesday, Obama said the objective was for Gaddafi to "ultimately step down" from power. He spoke of applying "steady pressure, not only militarily but also through these other means" to force Gaddafi out.
Obama said the U.S. had not ruled out providing military hardware to rebels. "It's fair to say that if we wanted to get weapons into Libya, we probably could. We're looking at all our options at this point," he told ABC News anchor Diane Sawyer
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/30/us-libya-usa-order-idUSTRE72T6H220110330 |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/30/2011 15:16:22 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2011 : 17:13:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Well surprise, surprise, the first reports of boots on the ground coming in... |
From where?
Yesterday:Update, 2:25 p.m.: I asked Ben Rhodes, Obama’s deputy national security adviser for strategic communications, about sending ground troops during a post-Gadhafi phase. Any such “international peacekeeping force” would have to occur “through the United Nations, as well as the structures we’re setting up in NATO,” and would require an “assessment of what the security needs are in post-Gadhafi Libya,” he said. But as for a U.S. contribution, “I would rule it out for the time being. … the U.S. has no plans, we’re not doing any planning to have any boots on the ground in any fashion.” What's changed between then and today that Google News isn't showing?| ...and we will soon be arming the rebels. Both clear violations of the mandate. |
Demonstrate how arming the rebels is a violation of any mandate. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2011 : 18:02:58 [Permalink]
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I re-watched the Daily Show from March 21. They made fun of the military action in Libya and Obama. Of course, it is not about regime change it is about "the encouragement of the self-relocation of leadership of Libya..."
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-21-2011/odyssey-dawn
I bow to the Daily Show's ironic reporting of the situation |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2011 : 19:29:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Not to mention that the UN said we could provide a no-fly zone and, to my knowledge,nothing about arming anyone. |
Arming the rebels requires no US troops, and so is not a military action that requires either Congressional approval or a legal basis under the WPR.| Nor will blaming the UN stop al-Qadea from wanting to attack and punish us as the infidel invaders. |
Al Qaeda are invading, according to your source.| It's almost as if you are more concerned about us having someone else to blame... |
It's big part of international politics. Some would call it "detente."| ...than the very real potential of this spiraling into hell in a hand basket |
That's why I didn't want us involved in the first place. The spiral has clearly begun, so now it's about saving face internationally.| Well that and you yourself said we should not be there. |
But I'm not saying that we shouldn't be there because Obama didn't get permission from Congress. I'm saying that we shouldn't be there because the mess that will happen in the near future should have been obvious to everyone a month ago. Obama is clearly thinking that a "win" will collect him some votes from hawkish moderate Republicans. He's not going to get anything like that out of Iraq or Afghanistan, since only Democratic votes could be earned were he to keep his campaign promises. He's got an opportunity in Libya to be as much of a badass as conservative Democrats will let him, and he's taking it.
Guys, I'm starting to think that the only way we're going to see real liberals playing serious roles in US politics again is if those of us who want that take a few (or a dozen, or a hundred) election cycles voting for actual communists, just to shift the Overton Window back to where a centrist like Bill Clinton is seen as a centrist, and not an "uber-Liberal" like the Republicans and Libertarians try to paint him these days. If the commies get enough votes to take the stage in a serious way, moderate conservatives will suddenly find the idea of "Zombie Carter 2048" not unpleasant at all.
The far right - those who think that Obama is a commie (or even a fascist!) - are a lost cause. All we can do about them is point and laugh, and hope that the policies they advocate destroy the dreams and bank accounts of enough of them that they'll be completely discouraged from voting at all. Of course, with Fox News blaming the Democrats for Republican failures, and lots of people believing that nonsense, that hope may be no hope at all.
But voting Democrat isn't going to cut it any more, given all the corporatist, conservative Democrats in the party. We might get a Democrat Congress again by doing so, but that doesn't count for much given how many Democrats legislate to the right of center. Seriously look at Bill scott's attitudes towards Obama, and you'll realize that an actual liberal in the White House (or at least one that won't roll over at the drop of a hat) would make Bill's head explode. And while I'd have empathy for Bill's family afterwards, it's what the country needs. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 05:11:01 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Not to mention that the UN said we could provide a no-fly zone and, to my knowledge,nothing about arming anyone. |
Arming the rebels requires no US troops, and so is not a military action that requires either Congressional approval or a legal basis under the WPR. |
A. We don't even know who the rebels are at this point.
B. According to Internationale legal law experts amongst others we would be violating the UN mandate if we pass arms to the rebels.
| That's why I didn't want us involved in the first place. The spiral has clearly begun, so now it's about saving face internationally. |
As well me. Other than if Obama is doing this all legally or not we pretty much agree that we should not be there in the first place..
| Well that and you yourself said we should not be there. |
But I'm not saying that we shouldn't be there because Obama didn't get permission from Congress. |
I agree with you there, as I have said. Under the act you pointed to he could act without congress on the no-fly zone.
It's the talk of arming the rebels and sending in American personal on the ground where he went to far.
| I'm saying that we shouldn't be there because the mess that will happen in the near future should have been obvious to everyone a month ago. |
And here is where we could not agree more. I knew darn well when he said "a no-fly zone only" that a no-fly zone was going to be just the beginning. He has already lied about getting out of Iraq and shutting down gitmo. We are already sending in American boots when he said that would not happen. This guy has created a pattern of not telling the truth.
| Obama is clearly thinking that a "win" will collect him some votes from hawkish moderate Republicans. He's not going to get anything like that out of Iraq or Afghanistan, since only Democratic votes could be earned were he to keep his campaign promises. He's got an opportunity in Libya to be as much of a badass as conservative Democrats will let him, and he's taking it. |
Your analysis at least has to be considered. I could see much of that being true.
| Guys, I'm starting to think that the only way we're going to see real liberals playing serious roles in US politics again is if those of us who want that take a few (or a dozen, or a hundred) election cycles voting for actual communists, just to shift the Overton Window back to where a centrist like Bill Clinton is seen as a centrist, and not an "uber-Liberal" like the Republicans and Libertarians try to paint him these days. If the commies get enough votes to take the stage in a serious way, moderate conservatives will suddenly find the idea of "Zombie Carter 2048" not unpleasant at all. |
Either that or you would just be pouring more gasoline on the tea party bonfire and actually making it bigger. Most Americans don't care much at all for communism. They see how it has panned out in other countries through out the world and want no part of it.
| The far right - those who think that Obama is a commie (or even a fascist!) - are a lost cause. All we can do about them is point and laugh, and hope that the policies they advocate destroy the dreams and bank accounts of enough of them that they'll be completely discouraged from voting at all. Of course, with Fox News blaming the Democrats for Republican failures, and lots of people believing that nonsense, that hope may be no hope at all. |
And then you have MSNBC whipping up a frenzy with the other side of the coin. With the FOX and MSNBC's channels here to stay I don't see the extremism on either side toning down any time soon.
| But voting Democrat isn't going to cut it any more, given all the corporatist, conservative Democrats in the party. We might get a Democrat Congress again by doing so, but that doesn't count for much given how many Democrats legislate to the right of center. |
But most of the time that is where most of the voting people are. It sways a little here and there most voters hang out in the just left of center and just right of center window.
| Seriously look at Bill scott's attitudes towards Obama, and you'll realize that an actual liberal in the White House (or at least one that won't roll over at the drop of a hat) would make Bill's head explode. |
Oh please, you are over the top now, at least with me. I have plenty of beefs with GWB and his 2 terms and I would gladly discuss them if you wanted to. See the difference between me and many of this board is I put both of them to the fire. No free passed for whoever is in the white house. With most on this forum GWB is Satin incarnate and Obama is Mother Tressa revisited and they will not budge from their beliefs one iota and there is no middle ground. Pity.
| And while I'd have empathy for Bill's family afterwards, it's what the country needs. |
OK now your rant has digressed into personal attacks.
| Demonstrate how arming the rebels is a violation of any mandate. |
Tell me how it is not? If your going to claim this falls under the "protecting of civilians" clause than you have lowered yourself to the tactics of the Bush/Chenny team. Clearing arming the rebels, who at this point we do not even know who they are, will result in more civilian deaths as the civil war rages on and on so in reality this has nothing to do with "protecting of civilians" and has all to do with Obama determining who will come out on top in this civil war. Will it be Mumaar or the unknown rebels, only Obama knows. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 07:06:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A. We don't even know who the rebels are at this point.
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Waving banners saying "Give us freedom of speech" and "we want democracy" isn't typical al-Quaida m.o. which should give us a clue... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 07:36:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
With most on this forum GWB is Satin incarnate and Obama is Mother Tressa revisited and they will not budge from their beliefs one iota and there is no middle ground. Pity.
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What an astute analogy. Do you realise that Mother Teresa is not held in high regard among skeptics? She was an evil witch with double standard.
I'm also disappointed by the lack of progress with Obama at the helm, but we have spineless democrats and self-serving republicans to thank for that. And an apathic electorate who doesn't give a shit that the country is going to hell. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 07:44:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
A. We don't even know who the rebels are at this point.
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Waving banners saying "Give us freedom of speech" and "we want democracy" isn't typical al-Quaida m.o. which should give us a clue...
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I remember seeing the same banners in Iraq. The trouble is that there is no one template that fits the rebels. Heck right now, admittedly, we don't even know who the rebels are. You are gonna have people from all spectrum's mixed in with the al-Qaeda's and the Muslim extremist. If and when the rebels take down Mommar than they will start fighting each other, I'll just bet you. If Mommar stays in power he will make the rebels, including many civilians, pay for the uprising. Either way I see lot's of fighting and strife ahead. That's just how these civil wars always play out. It's the last place we need to be sticking our nose. I figured we all would have learned this by now.
So what is your take on all the talk of Obama giving weapons to the unknown rebels and sending in special operations (boots on the ground) to "encourage" Mommar to leave? A lot of people, including me, believe this goes way beyond the UN mandate to protect the civilians with a no-fly zone, don't you? Heck even if you think it is legal Obama told us this would not happen and it already has. Nothing this guy says anymore is worth dirt. On what basis should we ever believe anything he says when he always does the opposite of what he says he will do? Iraq, Gitmo and now Libya. The only place he did what he said he was going to do was Afghanistan, which was ratcheting up the fight.
Don't you also find it troubling that on March 29th Hillary Clinton admits that we have no idea who the rebellion is and then on March 30th Obama says we very well may give these unknown rebels weaponry? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 08:06:20 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse |
| What an astute analogy. Do you realise that Mother Teresa is not held in high regard among skeptics? She was an evil witch with double standard. |
OK but you see my point. In your eyes everything Bush did was just evil while Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread and can do no wrong even if he tried. No middle ground is allowed here whatsoever.
| I'm also disappointed by the lack of progress with Obama at the helm, |
But again if you believe this than why oh why would you say this just a few posts back?
| It is encouraging to see an American leader who isn't itching on the trigger finger, but can show restraint. While at the same time be a responsible member of the world community. |
| but we have spineless democrats and self-serving republicans to thank for that. |
And here is my biggest beef of them all. It's never Obama, it can't be because he is the messiah and anointed one. The first two years of the Obama reign anything bad or negative was blamed on Bush. Now that Bush has been out of office for over two years that line is starting to wear thin with the mainstream. So now it's the congress's fault and has nothing to do with the man Obama himself.
| And an apathic electorate who doesn't give a shit that the country is going to hell. |
And here it is the electorates fault because it could never be Obama's fault. It can't be because if this guy was found to have a fault than he is not the Messiah that many think he is. So it remains Bush' s fault, congress's fault, the electorate's fault, etc... anybody but Obama. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 09:23:35 [Permalink]
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I certainly do not see Obama as a saint. I have been disappointed in some of his policies. I still hate Bush and Cheney - I can't get myself move from that position so far.
Bush/Cheney are still to blame for some of our problems, such as being in Iraq and the size of the deficit. Obama is to blame for LIbya and not making government more transparent as promised and not letting the tax credits expire. I am disappointed with some democrats in congress.
To Bill: I realize some of your arguments are reasonable and thoughtful and agree with some of them. but don't assume you know what other people are thinking.
In terms of moving politics in the this country back to the center, I think the best way would be to focus on local elections. Such as supporting the Green party at the local level. This may eventually lead to more influence on the state level and then national level. It is almost impossible to get other parties going on a national level |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 09:24:53 [Permalink]
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Bill. What's not true is that democrats view Obama as unable to do no wrong. Many of us have been exasperated over Obama's placating the right, and as Dave has pointed out, moving the middle further to the right. It's the constant criticism of him from the right that is baffling, since he has done everything he could to placate them. And while there has been some progress on some significant issues the left cares about, in general, Obama is leading very much right center. And the right has moved further right in response, because they will never ever let themselves be caught agreeing with him, even though much of what he's done were originally Republican ideas.
Also, your comparison with Fox and MSNBC doesn't hold water. Fox makes shit up. They go well beyond commentary. They have actually promoted and funded tea party events which goes well beyond commentary. I would be happy to make up a list of outright lies and falsehoods that Fox has pulled out of its ass and presented as news. Can you do the same with MSNBC? Sure, in the evening there is a left tilt to MSNBC, but the commentary isn't built on made up facts, its commentary on the facts that are out there. BIG DIFFERENCE!!! I'm so tired of that phony comparison. Fox is entitled to doing conservative commentary, but they are NOT entitled to make up their own facts to support their commentary. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 09:53:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
I certainly do not see Obama as a saint. I have been disappointed in some of his policies. I still hate Bush and Cheney - I can't get myself move from that position so far.
Bush/Cheney are still to blame for some of our problems, such as being in Iraq and the size of the deficit. Obama is to blame for LIbya and not making government more transparent as promised and not letting the tax credits expire. I am disappointed with some democrats in congress.
To Bill: I realize some of your arguments are reasonable and thoughtful and agree with some of them. but don't assume you know what other people are thinking.
In terms of moving politics in the this country back to the center, I think the best way would be to focus on local elections. Such as supporting the Green party at the local level. This may eventually lead to more influence on the state level and then national level. It is almost impossible to get other parties going on a national level
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Bush left office with the country in debt while Clinton left a surplus. So who was the fiscal conservative and who demonstrated a pay as you go philosophy here?
See I can find fault with Bush without even giving it any thought. But how do you figure that Bush is responsible for the current national deficit that Obama is running this year, and last year for that matter?
I don't hate Bush nor do I hate Obama. I just don't trust either one of them. You don't reach this level of politics by being a saint and not being slick. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 10:05:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
I cannot find anywhere where it gives authorization to start sending in arms to the rebels... |
I'd like to know where in the Constitution (or any other laws) it says that the President needs authorization from the UN (or anyone else) before shipping weapons to people in a foreign country.
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I never said anything about the consitution. I said it appears to have violated the UN mandate. Much like Iraq and Bush, Obama could send in arms and be fine under US law but under international law he is now a war criminal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/30/arming-libya-rebels-america-warned
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/31/2011 11:24:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 12:28:20 [Permalink]
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| Now there's something I didn't know: the UN passed an arms embargo on Libya back in February. This has nothing to do with the UN's more-recent resolution for the no-fly zone, so "violated the UN mandate" is the wrong language. It's a different UN resolution that the US is running afoul of. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 15:47:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
What an astute analogy. Do you realise that Mother Teresa is not held in high regard among skeptics? She was an evil witch with double standard. |
OK but you see my point. In your eyes everything Bush did was just evil while Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread and can do no wrong even if he tried. No middle ground is allowed here whatsoever. |
Wrong.
I thought you comparing Obama and Mother Theresa rather good, because he does look like he's doing good, but on closer inspection, there's still a lot of stuff that stinks to high heaven. Like closing the investigation of illegal domestic wiretaps, not closing Gitmo and so on...
| I'm also disappointed by the lack of progress with Obama at the helm, |
But again if you believe this than why oh why would you say this just a few posts back? [quote]It is encouraging to see an American leader who isn't itching on the trigger finger, but can show restraint. While at the same time be a responsible member of the world community. |
Not being trigger-happy and responsible is not mutually exclusive with being dissappointed with some of his failures.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bombs away
